Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1661004

Post by drjohncarpenter »

chop983 on Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:03 pm wrote:I have a question, has anyone else ever recorded Tiger man at sun other than theoriginal.
Only by the songwriter.

As discussed previously, somewhere around page 11, there are two Joe Hill Louis recordings, from 1952 and 1953, that were made at 706 Union. Neither were issued until decades later, and neither were known until their release.

Louis' first recording of "Tiger Man" was cut in November 1952. It surfaced on an obscure Dutch bootleg in 1975. A second unreleased recording made in September 1953, two months after Rufus Thomas Jr.'s Sun 188, first came to light on a 1985 Sun box set.


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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1661018

Post by MikeFromHolland »

chop983 on Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:03 pm wrote:I have a question, has anyone else ever recorded Tiger man at sun other than theoriginal.


..

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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1661145

Post by drjohncarpenter »

MikeFromHolland on Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:24 pm wrote:
chop983 on Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:03 pm wrote:I have a question, has anyone else ever recorded Tiger man at sun other than theoriginal.


..

.

This is the second version by Joe Hill Louis, from November 1953.

As I noted, it was released in 1985 on this marvelous, 9xLP box set:

Sun Records - The Blues Years 1950-1956
https://www.discogs.com/Various-Sun-Records-The-Blues-Years-1950-1956/release/4304494

It's on the second side of record six, "Mistreatin' Boogie."


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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1787780

Post by mike edwards66 »

BUMP.

And grind.


1972 - Elvis reconfirms in a matter of fact manner, that 'Tiger Man' was the 'second record' that he 'ever recorded'.


1970 - Elvis refers to 'Tiger Man' as the second record he ever recorded, giving a cryptic clue that 'not too many people heard it.....' PERHAPS this is because one of the few people that had 'heard it' shows up in Vegas, hangs around for a while and sparks Elvis' memory.


1968 - Singer Special. A statement of intent, after years in rock 'n' roll wilderness, Elvis tells us that, contrary to what we may have heard, he is the still the king of the jungle!


1953/4 - After recording 'My Happiness' at Sun with Marion Keisker at the helm, and whilst waiting hopefully for Sam Phillips to contact him, Elvis made a second record, the second that he ever recorded, at another recording service. Outside the box, but totally plausible. Fits perfectly and explains why no paperwork at Sun,


As Ernst Jorgensen noted, after Elvis recorded 'My Happiness', '...weeks and months went by and he heard nothing.......he couldn't stand it anymore........


>>>


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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1787833

Post by Mr Songman »

Oh no!...Not again!....

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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1787855

Post by bajo »

"The record never came out.." :sunglasses:


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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1787871

Post by jacob »

We may never know for sure if he recorded Tiger Man at Sun and questions have been raised about Elvis' accuracy's regarding his career but I think we do him a disservice if we think that he didn't know the difference between something he recorded or didn't record.




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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1787878

Post by Bobc »

I love this thread.



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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1787944

Post by drjohncarpenter »

jacob wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:41 pm
We may never know for sure if he recorded Tiger Man at Sun and questions have been raised about Elvis' accuracy's regarding his career but I think we do him a disservice if we think that he didn't know the difference between something he recorded or didn't record.


1) Ignore the trolls.

2) All the above has been addressed on this topic.


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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1827998

Post by drjohncarpenter »

DarkShade wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:10 pm
I don't know if this has been pointed out yet in this thread or not but according to the official Sony Legacy Elvis Presley website, www.elvisthemusic.com, Elvis did attempt "Tiger Man" while at Sun Records.

https://www.elvisthemusic.com/music/singer-presents-elvis-singing-flaming-star-and-others/




What appears on the page:


Singer Presents Elvis Singing Flaming Star And Others

Released: Oct. 1, 1968

With the Singer Sewing Company sponsoring Elvis’ upcoming one-man television special in December, the Colonel and RCA sanctioned a promotion that allowed Singer to sell a newly created budget-priced album exclusively in its stores for a period of three months after the broadcast. Except for the title track, none of the songs had previously been released. The material consisted of six movie leftovers, Elvis’ nimble delivery of “Too Much Monkey Business” (ably assisted by Jerry Reed), and “Tiger Man,” a Rufus Thomas original that Elvis had first attempted when he was on Sun (though no tape survives). The new version had been cut but then dropped from the special, with the more seasonally appropriate “Blue Christmas” taking its place. It was as fiery a performance as he had delivered in years and was restored to its place in the impromptu live concert at the heart of the show when the special was re-broadcast in August. RCA also put out the Singer Presents album on March 28, 1969 on its Camden budget label, and between the two versions, it sold half a million copies in the first year alone.

https://www.elvisthemusic.com/music/singer-presents-elvis-singing-flaming-star-and-others/

The website is repurposing the information found in the book Ernst Jørgensen and Roger Semon put together for The Complete Elvis Presley Masters (Legacy/RCA, October 2010).


Complete Elvis Presley Masters_01.jpg

Complete Elvis Presley Masters_02.jpg


Clearly, they read this topic and answered the question for all of us.

:wink:
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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1828006

Post by pmp »

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:31 pm
DarkShade wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:10 pm
I don't know if this has been pointed out yet in this thread or not but according to the official Sony Legacy Elvis Presley website, www.elvisthemusic.com, Elvis did attempt "Tiger Man" while at Sun Records.

https://www.elvisthemusic.com/music/singer-presents-elvis-singing-flaming-star-and-others/




What appears on the page:


Singer Presents Elvis Singing Flaming Star And Others

Released: Oct. 1, 1968

With the Singer Sewing Company sponsoring Elvis’ upcoming one-man television special in December, the Colonel and RCA sanctioned a promotion that allowed Singer to sell a newly created budget-priced album exclusively in its stores for a period of three months after the broadcast. Except for the title track, none of the songs had previously been released. The material consisted of six movie leftovers, Elvis’ nimble delivery of “Too Much Monkey Business” (ably assisted by Jerry Reed), and “Tiger Man,” a Rufus Thomas original that Elvis had first attempted when he was on Sun (though no tape survives). The new version had been cut but then dropped from the special, with the more seasonally appropriate “Blue Christmas” taking its place. It was as fiery a performance as he had delivered in years and was restored to its place in the impromptu live concert at the heart of the show when the special was re-broadcast in August. RCA also put out the Singer Presents album on March 28, 1969 on its Camden budget label, and between the two versions, it sold half a million copies in the first year alone.

https://www.elvisthemusic.com/music/singer-presents-elvis-singing-flaming-star-and-others/

The website is repurposing the information found in the book Ernst Jørgensen and Roger Semon put together for The Complete Elvis Presley Masters (Legacy/RCA, October 2010).



Image



Image



Clearly, they read this topic and answered the question for all of us.

:wink:
Nobody has ever said he didn't attempt it. The argument has been over your claim that he produced a master of it, it was planned as a single, and demo discs made.


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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1828048

Post by BobDylan »

pmp wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:30 pm
drjohncarpenter wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:31 pm
DarkShade wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:10 pm
I don't know if this has been pointed out yet in this thread or not but according to the official Sony Legacy Elvis Presley website, www.elvisthemusic.com, Elvis did attempt "Tiger Man" while at Sun Records.

https://www.elvisthemusic.com/music/singer-presents-elvis-singing-flaming-star-and-others/




What appears on the page:


Singer Presents Elvis Singing Flaming Star And Others

Released: Oct. 1, 1968

With the Singer Sewing Company sponsoring Elvis’ upcoming one-man television special in December, the Colonel and RCA sanctioned a promotion that allowed Singer to sell a newly created budget-priced album exclusively in its stores for a period of three months after the broadcast. Except for the title track, none of the songs had previously been released. The material consisted of six movie leftovers, Elvis’ nimble delivery of “Too Much Monkey Business” (ably assisted by Jerry Reed), and “Tiger Man,” a Rufus Thomas original that Elvis had first attempted when he was on Sun (though no tape survives). The new version had been cut but then dropped from the special, with the more seasonally appropriate “Blue Christmas” taking its place. It was as fiery a performance as he had delivered in years and was restored to its place in the impromptu live concert at the heart of the show when the special was re-broadcast in August. RCA also put out the Singer Presents album on March 28, 1969 on its Camden budget label, and between the two versions, it sold half a million copies in the first year alone.

https://www.elvisthemusic.com/music/singer-presents-elvis-singing-flaming-star-and-others/

The website is repurposing the information found in the book Ernst Jørgensen and Roger Semon put together for The Complete Elvis Presley Masters (Legacy/RCA, October 2010).



Image



Image



Clearly, they read this topic and answered the question for all of us.

:wink:
Nobody has ever said he didn't attempt it. The argument has been over your claim that he produced a master of it, it was planned as a single, and demo discs made.
pmp gets it!



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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1828053

Post by When In Rome »

While it would undoubtedly be a inconceivably great find, should we also consider that it may have been excruciatingly awful or deeply embarrassing in some way that they purposefully (?) destroyed every moment of any recorded master of it or indeed if they even committed it to tape in any form in the first place.
Presumably no alleged masters were held back due to publishing issues then somehow taped over by accident? Regardless, they seemingly never felt inclined to re-attempt the song in those formative years, whereas several SUN 'try-outs' were re-attempted over at RCA.
Fascinating stuff...


Well, Good evenin', don't that sun look good goin' down...


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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1828071

Post by DEH »

Wouldn't it have been great if Elvis would have just explained what he was talking about? Just once. So there was not 87 pages of this.



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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1828081

Post by pmp »

DEH wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:36 pm
Wouldn't it have been great if Elvis would have just explained what he was talking about? Just once. So there was not 87 pages of this.
To be fair, if outlandish conclusions were not made in the opening post, it wouldn't have got past page 2.


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Re: Elvis Recorded

#1828119

Post by drjohncarpenter »

When In Rome wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:43 pm
While it would undoubtedly be a inconceivably great find, should we also consider that it may have been excruciatingly awful or deeply embarrassing in some way that they purposefully (?) destroyed every moment of any recorded master of it or indeed if they even committed it to tape in any form in the first place.

Presumably no alleged masters were held back due to publishing issues then somehow taped over by accident? Regardless, they seemingly never felt inclined to re-attempt the song in those formative years, whereas several SUN 'try-outs' were re-attempted over at RCA.

Fascinating stuff...


Given the extant Sun tapes from 1954, there is not a single example of anything "excruciatingly awful or deeply embarrassing in some way."

The idea that Sam Phillips would have allowed Elvis to run on and on with precious recording tape on any such thing, kept it for a while, and later decided to erase or "destroy every moment" is simply absurd. He would have stopped the tape cold immediately, and stepped onto the studio floor to discuss what was not working.

It is definitely a pleasure to know that the guys in charge of the Elvis catalog for nearly thirty years not only read this topic, but tacitly acknowledged my research by fully accepting the premise.

It makes the handful of naysayers exactly what they appear to be: bitter and envious. Too bad, the information was always out there, I was the one who put it all together and shared it with every good member of this forum.

:smt023


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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1828123

Post by rollinson1 »

Whether Elvis' Tiger Man at Sun was put to tape or not is in all honesty conjecture, which does not mean that he didn't try it out. From all the information we have in all probability he did. Unless the tape comes to life which is very unlikely we will never know whether it was actually recorded. That said the research given in this post is very thought provoking and I don't think people should throw it out just because of who originated it. Whatever you think of a person should not cloud your judgement to how good they are at what they do and Dr. John Carpenter brings a lot of knowledge to this board. The Sam Phillips assessment is 100% spot on.


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Re: Elvis Recorded

#1828128

Post by iplayastrat »

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:23 am

It makes the handful of naysayers exactly what they appear to be: bitter and envious. Too bad, the information was always out there, I was the one who put it all together and shared it with every good member of this forum.
You sure like to talk about how great you are.
Word of advice, let others do the talking.

Since Elvis said he recorded Tiger Man himself,
as I heard him say on an uploaded CD to YouTube just
a few days ago. It seems more likely. Unfortunately
it doesn't mean it's true.

I'll take Elvis' word to mean it's quite possible he did
record it. So unless you were the one who recorded
him that night - you get no credit.

Since you never saw Elvis live in concert, I guess it would've
been impossible for you to record the evidence. So, three
cheers for the guy/gal who was there to record it. We can
have a small hope that we might get to hear it one day.


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Re: Elvis Recorded

#1828131

Post by When In Rome »

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:23 am


Given the extant Sun tapes from 1954, there is not a single example of anything "excruciatingly awful or deeply embarrassing in some way."

The idea that Sam Phillips would have allowed Elvis to run on and on with precious recording tape on any such thing, kept it for a while, and later decided to erase or "destroy every moment" is simply absurd. He would have stopped the tape cold immediately, and stepped onto the studio floor to discuss what was not working.
How Do You Think I Feel was not considered worthy and erased over.
drjohncarpenter wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:23 am

It is definitely a pleasure to know that the guys in charge of the Elvis catalog for nearly thirty years not only read this topic, but tacitly acknowledged my research by fully accepting the premise.

It makes the handful of naysayers exactly what they appear to be: bitter and envious. Too bad, the information was always out there, I was the one who put it all together and shared it with every good member of this forum.

:smt023
Ernst mentions the 'Tiger Man' theory way back in his 1998 book 'A Life In Music'.
Capture.JPG
All in all, I must confess, I'm still not exactly sure what new evidence has been brought to the table in this topic...
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Re: Elvis Recorded

#1828137

Post by drjohncarpenter »

When In Rome wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:40 am
drjohncarpenter wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:23 am
Given the extant Sun tapes from 1954, there is not a single example of anything "excruciatingly awful or deeply embarrassing in some way."

The idea that Sam Phillips would have allowed Elvis to run on and on with precious recording tape on any such thing, kept it for a while, and later decided to erase or "destroy every moment" is simply absurd. He would have stopped the tape cold immediately, and stepped onto the studio floor to discuss what was not working.


How Do You Think I Feel was not considered worthy and erased over.


There is no evidence I'm aware of someone felt it was unworthy. Who made that claim?

And your particular example was not "erased over." We still have the slap back tape reel where you can hear Elvis, Scotty, Bill and Jimmy running through the song.

It is almost certainly true that Sam recorded other songs on Elvis, namely the material going over well at the singer's live shows. Some examples would include "Shake, Rattle and Roll," "I Got A Woman," "Tweedlee Dee," "Money Honey," "Hearts of Stone," maybe even "Love Me."

But when Elvis hit upon something Sam felt was better for the next single, the other songs went back on his shelf to be recycled. Phillips was not willfully destroying the performances, he made the decision it was cheaper to not retain material on recording tape he might never use. He believed tape was expensive and that was his thought process.




When In Rome wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:40 am
drjohncarpenter wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:23 am
It is definitely a pleasure to know that the guys in charge of the Elvis catalog for nearly thirty years not only read this topic, but tacitly acknowledged my research by fully accepting the premise.

It makes the handful of naysayers exactly what they appear to be: bitter and envious. Too bad, the information was always out there, I was the one who put it all together and shared it with every good member of this forum.

:smt023


Ernst mentions the 'Tiger Man' theory way back in his 1998 book 'A Life In Music'.

Image


All in all, I must confess, I'm still not exactly sure what new evidence has been brought to the table in this topic...


Your comments here indicate you have not dedicated yourself to this topic. Ernst's 1998 observation was well addressed many pages ago. And that you are "unsure" about the information out there that I put all together only serves to underscore that lack of dedication. I'm surprised and disappointed.


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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1828138

Post by drjohncarpenter »

rollinson1 wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:11 am
Whether Elvis' Tiger Man at Sun was put to tape or not is in all honesty conjecture, which does not mean that he didn't try it out. From all the information we have in all probability he did. Unless the tape comes to life which is very unlikely we will never know whether it was actually recorded. That said the research given in this post is very thought provoking and I don't think people should throw it out just because of who originated it. Whatever you think of a person should not cloud your judgement to how good they are at what they do and Dr. John Carpenter brings a lot of knowledge to this board. The Sam Phillips assessment is 100% spot on.


Thank you.


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Stop, look and listen, baby <<--->> that's my philosophy!

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Re: Elvis Recorded

#1828187

Post by pmp »

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:38 pm

Your comments here indicate you have not dedicated yourself to this topic. Ernst's 1998 observation was well addressed many pages ago. And that you are "unsure" about the information conjecture out there that I put all together only serves to underscore that lack of dedication. I'm surprised and disappointed.


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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1828311

Post by jetblack »

Without any solid evidence everything to do with 'Tiger Man' being tried or recorded at Sun is indeed pure conjecture.

Andy


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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1828327

Post by Spellbinder »

jetblack wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:49 pm
Without any solid evidence everything to do with 'Tiger Man' being tried or recorded at Sun is indeed pure conjecture.

Andy
I'm not sure what you mean by "solid" evidence. There is evidence that he recorded it at Sun - he told us he did.


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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

#1828334

Post by bajo »

The only sure thing about Tiger Man: "The record never came out"! :(


"If you love me let me know, if you don't, ....move it!"
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