Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

[jetblack]

And Elvis makes the statement again, and again, and again, in a series of live performances of "Tiger Man" ALL BY ITSELF.

Yet we KNOW 'Tiger Man' was NOT Elvis second record. That would be 'I'll Never Stand In Your Way' / 'It Wouldn't Be The Same (without you)'. Or technically 'That's When Your Heartaches Begin' being the second song cut at 706 Union Avenue in July 1953.

Yet, at the beginning of this same summer 1970 engagement, not to mention the summer 1969 shows, Elvis used "Tiger Man" in a medley with "Mystery Train," another Sun number.

These facts are not mere coincidences. They are pertinent to the discussion.

A medley does not constitute the proof you are seeking.

We are very lucky a couple of super-fans taped these August 1970 shows or we would not have the evidence of the MAN himself doing this. It was not a single, "off the cuff" comment.

But, of course, the naysayers have not devoted any time to the discussion which I began here on August 24, 2010.

Every critique you see on this page alone has already been made several times, and credibly and completely refuted. Pages 1-87 are there for anyone to read, anytime they wish.

But these one-sentence complainers aren't about the debate. Or the fact that Elvis was serious in this example.

They're mad that they didn't find this first. They're jealous that a crucial part of Elvis' Sun history was given a very bright light by another forum member.

Too bad.

It is not a debate if you always think you are always right.

The FACTS speak for themselves:-

In 66 years since Elvis left Sun Records NO-ONE has corroborated anything you say regarding this song.

Sam Phillips, Marion Keisker, Scotty Moore and many more who were at Sun never mentioned it. In all those years there is zero paperwork.

Elvis off the cuff remark (of which he made many) is not to be taken seriously.

I'll deal with those facts not fantasy.

Andy

[pmp]

Elvis mentioned it too many times to be just a joke: that 1954 recording (demo, rehearsal, outtake, whatever) plus the 1955 pied pipper film and the 1969 rehearsal are probably the holy grails of Elvis Presley's music.

And how many times did he tell the story about the underground 8mm film in 1969 shows. It surely couldn't be a joke if he mentioned that many times, right? So, do you believe that, too?

[DEH]

One of the theories is that Someone reminded Elvis in August 1970 of something to make him think it was his second record. If that was the case why would Elvis have not remembered that? Maybe because he had a faulty memory about his own career or maybe because it was not true. This just goes round and round.

[Domino]

Elvis mentioned it too many times to be just a joke: that 1954 recording (demo, rehearsal, outtake, whatever) plus the 1955 pied pipper film and the 1969 rehearsal are probably the holy grails of Elvis Presley's music.

And how many times did he tell the story about the underground 8mm film in 1969 shows. It surely couldn't be a joke if he mentioned that many times, right? So, do you believe that, too?

Right for a short time in 1969 his monologue bit included the 8mm film ,but then it was gone .Never returned.
But the second record bit returned 2 years later and amazingly was the same record that was being called the second record.
This poor singer with the faulty memory was able to recall part of his monologue when all he had to do was remember the lyrics to his songs.Or maybe it wasn't recalling part of his monologue. Maybe he was recalling a memory .A memory that never changed from year to year.

Maybe all he did wrong was leave out the words "was going to be" .

[DEH]

But the second record talk did not start until mid August 1970.

[Domino]

But the second record talk did not start until mid August 1970.

The point is he could have picked any number of records to be the second record but he didn't.When he mentioned the second record years after mid 1970 it was still Tiger man.
He discarded monologues and changed parts of monologues but the second record bit remained the same .
Why couldn't he get that out of his head ?

[drjohncarpenter]

Didn't you self-publish a book on Elvis' music? If so, you better delete that post quick.

I won't bother with most of your comments, as they are your usual mix of error and speciousness. Most of your attacks have already been made in the previous pages here already, and each has been thoroughly and completely dismissed.

Yes. And it's well-researched ...

[drjohncarpenter]

The second record introductions also mean nothing - unless you're going to believe everything Elvis said on stage.

non sequitur

[drjohncarpenter]

Do we have a list of these songs?

Do we? Yup. Try reading the previous pages of this discussion, instead of wasting bandwidth.

[drjohncarpenter]

Elvis mentioned it too many times to be just a joke: that 1954 recording (demo, rehearsal, outtake, whatever) plus the 1955 pied pipper film and the 1969 rehearsal are probably the holy grails of Elvis Presley's music.

Correct. Thank you.

[drjohncarpenter]

Yet we KNOW 'Tiger Man' was NOT Elvis second record. That would be 'I'll Never Stand In Your Way' / 'It Wouldn't Be The Same (without you)'. Or technically 'That's When Your Heartaches Begin' being the second song cut at 706 Union Avenue in July 1953.

Wrong.

You should leave this discussion as, AGAIN, it is evident you have not bothered to read this discussion topic.

You're just blowing hot air and wasting our time.

You may excel at these two things, but that doesn't mean anyone else appreciates it.

[drjohncarpenter]

Right for a short time in 1969 his monologue bit included the 8mm film ,but then it was gone .Never returned.

But the second record bit returned 2 years later and amazingly was the same record that was being called the second record.

This poor singer with the faulty memory was able to recall part of his monologue when all he had to do was remember the lyrics to his songs.Or maybe it wasn't recalling part of his monologue. Maybe he was recalling a memory .A memory that never changed from year to year.

Maybe all he did wrong was leave out the words "was going to be" .

Maybe you're using too much facts and logic for the handful of jealous naysayers here.

But the second record talk did not start until mid August 1970.

The point is he could have picked any number of records to be the second record but he didn't.When he mentioned the second record years after mid 1970 it was still Tiger man.

He discarded monologues and changed parts of monologues but the second record bit remained the same .

Why couldn't he get that out of his head ?

Careful, you're going to blow too many minds with your facts and observations.

They so wish they could have found this subject, and amplified it for all good fans worldwide. The evidence was always right there.

But none of them ever did. None of them ever noticed. None of them ever made the connection.

Until this topic, created by someone else.

[DEH]

Right for a short time in 1969 his monologue bit included the 8mm film ,but then it was gone .Never returned.

But the second record bit returned 2 years later and amazingly was the same record that was being called the second record.

This poor singer with the faulty memory was able to recall part of his monologue when all he had to do was remember the lyrics to his songs.Or maybe it wasn't recalling part of his monologue. Maybe he was recalling a memory .A memory that never changed from year to year.

Maybe all he did wrong was leave out the words "was going to be" .

Maybe you're using too much facts and logic for the handful of jealous naysayers here.

But the second record talk did not start until mid August 1970.

The point is he could have picked any number of records to be the second record but he didn't.When he mentioned the second record years after mid 1970 it was still Tiger man.

He discarded monologues and changed parts of monologues but the second record bit remained the same .

Why couldn't he get that out of his head ?

Careful, you're going to blow too many minds with your facts and observations.

They so wish they could have found this subject, and amplified it for all good fans worldwide. The evidence was always right there.

But none of them ever did. None of them ever noticed. None of them ever made the connection.

Until this topic, created by someone else.

Because so much of what Elvis said on stage was either BS or incorrect. And plenty of proof has been given.

[drjohncarpenter]

Because so much of what Elvis said on stage was either BS or incorrect. And plenty of proof has been given.

You excel at being wrong, and arrogantly so.

I wish you'd share this skill this on another forum, though.

[DEH]

Ladies and Gentlemen. The most requested song from Blue Hawaii...The Hawaiin Wedding Song. Uh huh.

[pmp]

Elvis mentioned it too many times to be just a joke: that 1954 recording (demo, rehearsal, outtake, whatever) plus the 1955 pied pipper film and the 1969 rehearsal are probably the holy grails of Elvis Presley's music.

And how many times did he tell the story about the underground 8mm film in 1969 shows. It surely couldn't be a joke if he mentioned that many times, right? So, do you believe that, too?

Right for a short time in 1969 his monologue bit included the 8mm film ,but then it was gone .Never returned.
But the second record bit returned 2 years later and amazingly was the same record that was being called the second record.
This poor singer with the faulty memory was able to recall part of his monologue when all he had to do was remember the lyrics to his songs.Or maybe it wasn't recalling part of his monologue. Maybe he was recalling a memory .A memory that never changed from year to year.

Maybe all he did wrong was leave out the words "was going to be" .

That is not true. When the second record comment returned, it was before the Mystery Train/Tiger Man medley, which only lends weight to the argument that Elvis was referring to Mystery Train and not Tiger Man from the outset, but had somehow got mixed up.

Either way, as I repeat for the umpteenth time, nobody is arguing about the notion that it was tried out at Sun. It more than likely was. What they arguing with is the following from the opening post:

Somehow, though, Elvis, Scotty and Bill must have cut a version of "Tiger Man" as a possible follow-up to "That's All Right" (Sun 209), and then producer Sam Phillips pressed acetates for evaluation. Thus the origin of Elvis' "second record" that "not too many people heard" reference.

There is absolutely no evidence or proof or likelihood that Phillips pressed acetates and that it was pencilled in as the second record. Nothing.

But hey, the Doc won't retract it because he likes the attention the thread receives every six months when he comes along to needlessly resurrect it.

[pmp]

Didn't you self-publish a book on Elvis' music? If so, you better delete that post quick.

I won't bother with most of your comments, as they are your usual mix of error and speciousness. Most of your attacks have already been made in the previous pages here already, and each has been thoroughly and completely dismissed.

Yes. And it's well-researched ...

And I ask again, where is your book, oh fount of all knowledge? Nowhere. But hey, your reviews under a pseudonym could be compiled into a pamphlet, I guess.

[PiersEIN]

Didn't you self-publish a book on Elvis' music? If so, you better delete that post quick.

I won't bother with most of your comments, as they are your usual mix of error and speciousness. Most of your attacks have already been made in the previous pages here already, and each has been thoroughly and completely dismissed.

Yes. And it's well-researched ...

And I ask again, where is your book, oh fount of all knowledge? Nowhere.
But hey, your reviews under a pseudonym could be compiled into a pamphlet, I guess.

Elvis adored the song "Tiger Man"
- Elvis listened to KDIA Radio, knew the disc jockeys and the music
- Elvis attended the KDIA Benefit shows in 1956 and 1957

Yes indeed a neat pamphlet where Elvis regularly went to 'KDIA' Radio Goodwill shows!

And it is nice to see drjohncarpenter thanking me for helping him update his incorrect facts.
Remember how much he bangs on when he corrects other FECC members over pernickety facts!

Cheers, Piers

[Steve Morse]

Yet we KNOW 'Tiger Man' was NOT Elvis second record. That would be 'I'll Never Stand In Your Way' / 'It Wouldn't Be The Same (without you)'. Or technically 'That's When Your Heartaches Begin' being the second song cut at 706 Union Avenue in July 1953.

Wrong.

You should leave this discussion as, AGAIN, it is evident you have not bothered to read this discussion topic.

You're just blowing hot air and wasting our time.

You may excel at these two things, but that doesn't mean anyone else appreciates it.

As ill-mannered as ever.

[drjohncarpenter]

Elvis mentioned it too many times to be just a joke: that 1954 recording (demo, rehearsal, outtake, whatever) plus the 1955 pied pipper film and the 1969 rehearsal are probably the holy grails of Elvis Presley's music.

BTW, where is that new avatar from?







It's quite appealing.

[jeanno]

Elvis mentioned it too many times to be just a joke: that 1954 recording (demo, rehearsal, outtake, whatever) plus the 1955 pied pipper film and the 1969 rehearsal are probably the holy grails of Elvis Presley's music.

BTW, where is that new avatar from?







It's quite appealing.

Looks like this new cover art hit the nail of this particular thread!
It's a rhythm & blues comp focusing on those 1967 / 1971 magical years with TIGER MAN as a linking theme song.

[AndrewJ]

Here's a bit of conjecture to think about - maybe the reference to Tiger Man as a 'second' song is a red herring? Could the medley with Mystery Train indicate that it was at this later session that it was tried out? So maybe it was slated to be a later release? Also, could this cut have been tried out with drums - Johnny Bernero was on this session, or maybe at the I'm Left, You're Right Session with Jimmy Lott? The existence of the test acetate of the slow version of I'm Left You're Right She's Gone (slow version) shows that Sam Phillips was in the habit of doing this at this point, so may have pressed a Tiger Man acetate then?

As I said - just a bit of conjecture. The Mystery Train has been highlighted in previous posts - so maybe the reason for the medley was the fact Elvis remembered recording them together? Could it be possible that Tiger Man was rejected as a possible 5th/6th Sun single?

[drjohncarpenter]

Here's a bit of conjecture to think about - maybe the reference to Tiger Man as a 'second' song is a red herring? Could the medley with Mystery Train indicate that it was at this later session that it was tried out? So maybe it was slated to be a later release? Also, could this cut have been tried out with drums - Johnny Bernero was on this session, or maybe at the I'm Left, You're Right Session with Jimmy Lott? The existence of the test acetate of the slow version of I'm Left You're Right She's Gone (slow version) shows that Sam Phillips was in the habit of doing this at this point, so may have pressed a Tiger Man acetate then?

As I said - just a bit of conjecture. The Mystery Train has been highlighted in previous posts - so maybe the reason for the medley was the fact Elvis remembered recording them together? Could it be possible that Tiger Man was rejected as a possible 5th/6th Sun single?

I love your suggestions, but I don't think any are feasible.

When Elvis said "Tiger Man" almost became his "second record," he clearly meant his second release for Sun, after "That's All Right" came out in July 1954. That he would perform it alone at the summer 1970 engagement after saying this only underscores his point.

Earlier that month, it was delivered in a medley with "Mystery Train," which Presley debuted at the International the previous summer, and would revisit as the 1970s progressed. Again, the fact he sang "Tiger Man" by itself was significant.

At the time Sam Phillips was working with Elvis on a followup to Sun 209 circa August-September 1954 there were no drummers. Neither Jimmie Lott nor Johnny Bernero were involved.

"Tiger Man" could indeed have been revived in later sessions in 1954 or 1955, but this isn't what Elvis was talking about on stage in the summer of 1970, and sporadically in 1971-1972.

Sam was interviewed many times about the majestic, otherworldly "Mystery Train," which of course was the last single from Elvis on Sun. Never once did he ever mention "Tiger Man" being in the running for that single, or after.

A possible sixth Sun release has often been said to be "When It Rains It Pours" on one side, and perhaps "We're Getting Closer (To Being Apart)" on the other. The latter did not get recorded at Sun, although songwriter Charlie Feathers always claimed it was being planned that way.

Thanks for some intelligence discourse on this very popular FECC topic.

[drjohncarpenter]

BTW, where is that new avatar from?







It's quite appealing.

Looks like this new cover art hit the nail of this particular thread!
It's a rhythm & blues comp focusing on those 1967 / 1971 magical years with TIGER MAN as a linking theme song.

It did indeed! It's great, thank you.

Is it available in larger size, perhaps for one to print up?

It's clear many here might like to do that.

[pmp]

I love your suggestions, but I don't think any are feasible.

When Elvis said "Tiger Man" almost became his "second record,"

Where does he say "almost?"

These are your transcriptions of his comments:

1. "That was called 'Tiger Man,' that was the second record I ever recorded."
2. "The second record that I ever recorded was called "Tiger Man."
3. "One of, the second record that I recorded was a song called 'Tiger Man,' not too many people heard it."
4. "The second record that I ever recorded, uh, ladies and gentlemen, the story isn't too well known, but not too many people heard it but ... it's called 'Tiger Man.'"
5. "That was called 'Tiger Man,' that was the second record I ever recorded."
6. "The second record that I ever recorded, when I first started out in the business, was called 'Tiger Man.' And, uh (applause), you heard of it? Not too many people did."
7. "I did a song back when I first started out. Not too many people heard it, because I wasn't well-known at the time. My mother and daddy knew me but, uh, (laughs) ... said "Who's that?" ... the sideburns (ack)... uh, anyway, there was this song, it's called 'Tiger Man.' It goes like this ... uh, it's called 'Tiger Man."
8. "The second song that I ever recorded, not too many people heard it because I wasn't too well-known and, uh, it's called 'Tiger Man'."

So where does he say it "almost" became his second recording? He doesn't say that at all. He says that it WAS his second record. So, now you're literally making stuff up.

And he also says in (7) and (8) that people didn't hear it because he "wasn't too well-known." He's not saying people didn't hear it because it wasn't actually the second record he put out. Therefore we have to assume that the record was released, as that's precisely what he's saying.

So, now we are in a position where you want us to accept that Elvis was telling the truth when he was saying these 8 comments. BUT you also want us to NOT believe the statements because you and I both know that the record never came out, AND because the reason people didn't hear it had nothing whatsoever to do with him not being well-known.

And let's also note that (7) doesn't involve him mentioning it being a record at all, but just a song from when he started out. Going by that comment, he could easily have been singing it live at the time but not in the studio.

So, which is it, Doc? Are we believing Elvis's comments or not? You can't pick and choose which bits you believe.