Elvis Presley At 3AM - Lake Tahoe 1973 (Memphis Recording Service)

[sweetangeline]

It's a gamble for them, for sure, but Sony clearly don't feel their own case is strong enough to guarantee a victory, or they would have stepped in five or six years ago.

...as wealthy as SONY MUSIC must be it`s hard for me to believe why they would not try?? Record companies have been suing for year's with no guarantees so I still think were missing something here??

[emjel]

There will be no legal action as there is no illegal business being done. Simple as that.

What MRS put out (regardless of ones opinon of the FTD/MRS battle) are genuine products with a lot of effort put in to make it sound as good as possible and presented in the best possible way. If I could release excellent releases of my heros music, I would.

The shows on this upcoming release clearly don't fall under the PD law as the material has been officially released through FTD before the deadline for these recordings applied.
MRS simply assume they have nothing to fear and neither SONY nor FTD will bother going after them. This still does not make that release legal in the sense you want it to be.

That's not strictly true. There is nothing "clear" about what MRS are doing, and we are not judge and jury as to whether the stereo-isation of the audio is enough to make it count in the eyes of the law as unissued audio. It's not up to us to make that decision.

There was an interesting case with Bear Family and their transfers and restorations of Carter Family recordings. When another company took their audio, Bear Family went after them - despite the recordings themselves being out of copyright. And they won. In other words, it was passed audio restoration can be copyrighted separately from the raw audio that is in the public domain.

That's not exactly the same as the FTD/MRS issue. The raw audio was definitely in the public domain to start with. But the Bear Family/JSP case certainly makes it more difficult to work out what a court of law would decide with regards to what MRS are doing - restoration that they are claiming to be a new, unreleased piece of work. It's a gamble for them, for sure, but Sony clearly don't feel their own case is strong enough to guarantee a victory, or they would have stepped in five or six years ago.

I wonder if that case was similar to the case I wrote about on another thread where Apple/Universal Music went after a Canadian company for putting out a Beatles CD - they even went after the distributors and the shops selling them.
It transpired that whilst the recordings had recently fallen into the Public Domain and there was no copyright protection, the Lennon & McCartney publishing rights were not and whilst the Canadian record company said they were still legally able to produce the CDs, have them distributed and get them sold because they had paid the mechanical publishing fee, Apple were not prepared to run with this because they could see that the CDs were selling extremely well because of the budget price of the CDs and Apple were not prepared to take any financial hit on lost sales of their product, so told the firms that controlled the publishing rights to return any monies paid and not to accept any further payments from the company which prevented further sales and production.
Moral of this was a warning to others not to mess with The Beatles catalogue.

[emjel]

It's a gamble for them, for sure, but Sony clearly don't feel their own case is strong enough to guarantee a victory, or they would have stepped in five or six years ago.

...as wealthy as SONY MUSIC must be it`s hard for me to believe why they would not try?? Record companies have been suing for year's with no guarantees so I still think were missing something here??

As I have previously written it’s not so much about things we might be missing, but things that we simply do not know about. Too many assumptions of illegal activity being thrown around by a few without knowledge of the full facts.

And as this release has only just been announced, even if there is a copyright violation, at the moment, we have no idea if Sony have started some kind of action or will do so. Time will tell as the release is due out toward the end of February 2024.

But Sony never went after those who recently put out a few albums that contain recordings that are clearly not in the public Domain like the Lost 1966 album and the ‘68 Special stuff.

[pmp]

It's a gamble for them, for sure, but Sony clearly don't feel their own case is strong enough to guarantee a victory, or they would have stepped in five or six years ago.

...as wealthy as SONY MUSIC must be it`s hard for me to believe why they would not try?? Record companies have been suing for year's with no guarantees so I still think were missing something here??

I'm not so sure. They're wealthy partly because they're prudent. Is it worth putting in the hours when these items are coming out (in most cases) months or years after the FTD has been issued? How many sales did FTD lose - if any? It's probably more the case that people who have the FTD then buy the MRS because they like the stereo sound or the fact that some care and attention has gone into the release. If anything, MRS probably gain (and maybe even simply exist) because FTD fail so many times to their releases at the standard most people expect. But I don't think FTD lose sales - or not enough to bother with. Takin Tahoe Tonight was issued by FTD ages ago.

[joekro1977]

Takin Tahoe Tonight was issued by FTD ages ago.

And TTT hasn't been available at retail for at least 10 years.

[drjohncarpenter]

Hey, theft is theft.

What is theft, really? Just a word.

[sweetangeline]

It's a gamble for them, for sure, but Sony clearly don't feel their own case is strong enough to guarantee a victory, or they would have stepped in five or six years ago.

...as wealthy as SONY MUSIC must be it`s hard for me to believe why they would not try?? Record companies have been suing for year's with no guarantees so I still think were missing something here??

As I have previously written it’s not so much about things we might be missing, but things that we simply do not know about. Too many assumptions of illegal activity being thrown around by a few without knowledge of the full facts.

And as this release has only just been announced, even if there is a copyright violation, at the moment, we have no idea if Sony have started some kind of action or will do so. Time will tell as the release is due out toward the end of February 2024.

But Sony never went after those who recently put out a few albums that contain recordings that are clearly not in the public Domain like the Lost 1966 album and the ‘68 Special stuff.

I think Sony (on these issues) don`t really care at least that`s how it looks...you present something above that may be questionable and then you present things where there was clear violation and the bottom line is NOTHING IS DONE and I agree with you on the post. I give up on what should be pursued and what not and it looks like Sony feels the same way. When was the last time Sony did something about these kind of issues??

[drjohncarpenter]

That's a neat way of putting it.

I would be very happy putting together most of the enjoyable and absorbing sets that MRS have released.
The design is stylish, the text written by one of FECCs favourite writers, and the sound remastering is sensational.
More often than not a real improvement.
Their earlier 180 page Book / CD combos were stunning.
Certainly value-for-money compared to Madison's more recent bootleg illegal releases.
Cheers
Piers

1) More money-for-value happens when you copy officially-released FTD and RCA discs -- no overhead!

2) The most recent Madison release was 15 years ago, perhaps update that website you constantly promote?

[pmp]

Hey, theft is theft.

What is theft, really? Just a word.

And yet you have openly supported the Madison label, with volumes 7 onwards of their Legendary Performer series stealing from all kinds of sources, including Sony and FTD.

So why have you praised them and yet are so persistently against MRS? It clearly has nothing to do with their practices.

[emjel]

You have Double standard of the highest order.

[Lee Wood]

In their best years, labels like Madison brought us new stuff, unreleased and essential.

It's true that their final releases were more like MRS, recycling previously released material.

And in Madison's case theft was theft, right?

[drjohncarpenter]

And yet you have openly supported the Madison label, with volumes 7 onwards of their Legendary Performer series stealing from all kinds of sources, including Sony and FTD.

So why have you praised them and yet are so persistently against MRS? It clearly has nothing to do with their practices.

Um, where did I do that, in your fractured mind? Because I NEVER did any such thing here.

The last Madison release was 15 years ago. Whatever you're talking about was done by imposters.

And you're the guy who touts all the Elvis books you self-publish. Dear me.

[emjel]

In their best years, labels like Madison brought us new stuff, unreleased and essential.

It's true that their final releases were more like MRS, recycling previously released material.

And in Madison's case theft was theft, right?

Indeed. These anti MRS people don’t understand that if something is illegal, then the time when the record or CD was released is irrelevant, even if it was decades ago. And I bet those old bootlegs sold more than MRS currently do. It was illegal to record Elvis shows and then sell recordings to make money and still the odd audience recording pops up and of course, if previously released, it is now released in super quality sound.

It was illegal to make and sell bootlegs of unreleased RCA studio recordings, which still seems to happen, as mentioned above, but now, the word "bootleg" is no longer used and has been replaced by the word "import" which sounds far more legal. Interestingly, we had recognised shops like HMV and Virgin in London selling loads of Elvis imports decades ago from the US, Europe and even Japan. They used to have designated browser stands and racks labelled up Elvis Imports, but the strange thing about all of them was that they were all RCA records.

[PiersEIN]

That's a neat way of putting it.
I would be very happy putting together most of the enjoyable and absorbing sets that MRS have released.
The design is stylish, the text written by one of FECCs favourite writers, and the sound remastering is sensational.
More often than not a real improvement.
Their earlier 180 page Book / CD combos were stunning.
Certainly value-for-money compared to Madison's more recent bootleg illegal releases.
Cheers
Piers

1) More money-for-value happens when you copy officially-released FTD and RCA discs -- no overhead!
2) The most recent Madison release was 15 years ago, perhaps update that website you constantly promote?

Oh dear sweet drjohncarpenter,
You must have more insider information about the MADISON label than the people that own and run FECC.

on FECC Import News (perhaps you have heard of them check here >> http://www.elvis-collectors.com/import_news.html ) they state that the last Madsion release was August 2022.

"American Sound - From The Acetates"
Madison is back once more and happy to present a brand new limited edition CD release containing some fantastic acetate recordings.
Fans have frequently expressed a strong wish to hear Elvis as he sounded in the studio, undiluted by overdubs and excessive vocal backing, and now is your chance to hear exactly this.
And as always with the Madison releases, it is presented in a jewel case with a 16 page booklet containing liner notes and some fantastic photos."

If you know more about the workings of the Madison label then please tell us all..
and please contact FECC webmasters to correct their information,
- "perhaps FECC could update that website you constantly promote."

Cheers,
Piers

[pmp]

And yet you have openly supported the Madison label...

Um, where did I do that, in your fractured mind?

Screenshot 2023-12-22 020813.jpg

[Lee Wood]

Are the MRS releases legal in the U.S.?
Or are they, if sold there, bootlegs?

Are MRS selling directly to the States, or is someone importing them? What about Eric records? Your same questions applies?

What about the Sold Out DVDs, are they legal?

[Lee Wood]

And yet you have openly supported the Madison label...

Um, where did I do that, in your fractured mind?

Oh dear. Caught out.

[Lee Wood]

Are the MRS releases legal in the U.S.?
Or are they, if sold there, bootlegs?

Are MRS selling directly to the States, or is someone importing them? What about Eric records? Your same questions applies?

What about the Sold Out DVDs, are they legal?

You are avoiding a very simple question. Wonder why that is? Hmmm...

Wonder away. I'm not avoiding it, I'm asking a genuine question.

As I understand it MRS are prevented from selling in the States. However, a dealer can import MRS products and sell them. Also I believe a person living in the States can order directly from MRS. So, if you can make it clear to me, and others, are these bootlegs? It would be useful to know. Can you direct us to what the law is in these instances?

So, perhaps you can answer that purely to inform us.

Now, back to my question.

What about Eric records? Are they legal in the States? Are they bootlegs?

Are Sold Out DVDs legal, not only in the States, but anywhere?

[Lee Wood]

Thank you for confirming that the MRS releases are essentially bootlegs, that can only be released here through a loophole in the lax European copyright laws.

Interesting that you put the MRS releases in the same category as the Sold Out releases. That says it all, methinks.

Why does it say it all? I'm trying to have a conversation with you. Neither of us in an expert with regard to public domain, and it's not something one can understand in a few minutes by reading a couple of articles,

I haven't put MRS in the same category as the Sold Out releases. Please stop being devious. I was asking you:

What about Eric records? Are they legal in the States? Are they bootlegs?

Are Sold Out DVDs legal, not only in the States, but anywhere?

In addition, where do you stand with regard to the public domain laws in the States? There are thousands of works in the States that are in the public domain. These include books, audio recordings, films, TV shows, photographs. So when you look through the list, it seems that anyone can access these works and republish them. These then find their way around the world. Does this mean there's a loophole in the lax American copyright laws?

How about a straight answer instead of allowing your obvious hatred for MRS come through?

[YDKM]

With any new release I always wait for sound quality feedback and that's what happened with the MRS opening night 1972, I bought it and was blown away by the just amazing sound quality, info I have recieved tells me this Tahoe 73 one will be just as impressive.

[drjohncarpenter]

And yet you have openly supported the Madison label, with volumes 7 onwards of their Legendary Performer series stealing from all kinds of sources, including Sony and FTD.

So why have you praised them and yet are so persistently against MRS? It clearly has nothing to do with their practices.

Um, where did I do that, in your fractured mind? Because I NEVER did any such thing here.

The last Madison release was 15 years ago. Whatever you're talking about was done by imposters.

And you're the guy who touts all the Elvis books you self-publish. Dear me.

Oh, dear.

Forum dimwit desperately digs up a single comment made more than . . . 17 YEARS AGO.

A legacy post which in essence SUPPORTS my position today.


P.S. you also mischaracterized the content of the old title you mentioned by name, which is typical, as you lie a lot when you argue.

https://www.elvisnews.com/2005/44/a-legendary-performer-volume-7


End of the day, you're the most embarrassing member of this great forum, through all three (or is it four) different user logins.

At least you're #1 at something in your life.

[Lee Wood]

Since you are asking me a personal question, I will give you an honest and straightforward answer.

For me personally, this is not about copyright laws. It is not even about hatred for an individual or an entity.

In my book, there is something morally wrong about MRS simply parasiting on the FTD releases. No matter what you or your buddy here write, it just doesn't sit well with me. I know that you both have a gazillion excuses, but none of them are convincing to me. It is wrong. Period.

I don't have a gazillion excuses. I don't have one. I don't have a buddy on here, whereas you do.

I'm talking about whether it's legal or not. Now, if you can prove there is a direct copy from and FTD then I would agree with you that it is wrong. However, none of that has been proved yet.

[emjel]

Since you are asking me a personal question, I will give you an honest and straightforward answer.

For me personally, this is not about copyright laws. It is not even about hatred for an individual or an entity.

In my book, there is something morally wrong about MRS simply parasiting on the FTD releases. No matter what you or your buddy here write, it just doesn't sit well with me. I know that you both have a gazillion excuses, but none of them are convincing to me. It is wrong. Period.

Do you think it is morally wrong for someone to record Elvis shows when not allowed to do so, and then sell those shows to people who produce bootlegs and then make money out of them. Do you think it is morally wrong for various labels to put out RCA recordings that are clearly not in the public domain such as The Lost 1966 Album, Elvis ‘68 Unleashed or The Rocker Strikes Back.

Perhaps you own a copy of the latter album with it’s USP, but just in case you don’t and are unaware of what the latter album contains, here’s the marketing blurb for MTP’s bootleg album (sorry Import album…The Rocker Strikes Back'. - MTP records really lives up to their name again by creating the final chapter in the 'Rocker' series after 27 years! The 'Rocker' (1984) and 'Return of the Rocker' (1986) albums are now accompanied by a new volume focussing on Elvis in the seventies.

An amazing tracklist with lots of rare tracks is being edited without pauses and it really rocks! Be sure to pre order this release which will, without a doubt, be played!

Tracks: C. C. Rider (18.02.1970 MS) - Release Me (18.02.1970 MS) - Sweet Caroline (16.02.1970 DS) - Proud Mary (10.06.1972 AS) - Cindy Cindy (Edited Master With Brass Overdubs) - Talk About The Good Times (Unedited Master With Vocal Overdubs) - Way Down (Unedited Master) - Promised Land (Take 1) - Johnny B. Goode (30.03.1972 - Spliced) - Polk Salad Annie (31.03.1972) - Whole Lotta Shakin' Goin' On (Unedited Overdubbed Master - Rough Mix) - Fools Rush In (Unedited Master) - Put Your Hand In The Hand (Take 1) - T-R-O-U-B-L-E (Original Session Mix) - Tiger Man (Jam) - Susan When She Tried - Moody Blue (Unedited Master With Brass / Strings Overdubs) - Burning Love (Unedited Master With Band Overdubs) - For The Heart - Raised On Rock (Rough Mix).

The bit you seem to be missing here is that it is everything to do with copyright laws and you can’t turn the "illegal" thing off just when it suits you because a certain label offers something new of merit whereas MRS according to you does not do that. But here’s the thing. MRS are certainly offering releases of merit for those fans or more casual fans who cannot afford the kind of prices that FTD charge or wouldn’t even know where to buy an FTD release. Now whether this particular release is illegal, at the moment we have no idea. To me, and on the face of what is being presented, it looks like it could be, because the shows do not appear to be in the public domain but until we have all the facts, we cannot start throwing accusations around.

Bottom line as I previously wrote is that you appear to have massive double standards.

[jetblack]

Forum dimwit

End of the day, you're the most embarrassing member of this great forum,

When a poster starts name calling another member of this forum then their argument is lost.

Please stop embarrassing yourself any further.

Andy

[drjohncarpenter]

Forum dimwit

End of the day, you're the most embarrassing member of this great forum,

When a poster starts name calling another member of this forum then their argument is lost.

Please stop embarrassing yourself any further.

Andy

Condemning posts out of context is always a failure.

Don't be a failure, "Andy."