Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

[BobDylan]

So really, what we have after 84 pages and however many years, no definitive proof that Tiger Man was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Everyone is open to that it may have been tried out or possibly even recorded. But absent any proof, I'm going with it wasn't recorded.

[Ciscoking]

So really, what we have after 84 pages and however many years, no definitive proof that Tiger Man was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Everyone is open to that it may have been tried out or possibly even recorded. But absent any proof, I'm going with it wasn't recorded.

This mirrors my thoughts exactly and since a speech about Mystery Train being his second record
is there in all seriousness I think this Tiger Man story is nonsense and belongs to lala land.

Listen carefully ....word for word..

Second second record

[BobDylan]

Rumored works of art by the Masters are periodically discovered in basements, garages and attics. Display your confidence and take the pledge. So far no takers just talkers.

Remind me again please as to what this pledge business is about.

[BobDylan]

So really, what we have after 84 pages and however many years, no definitive proof that Tiger Man was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Everyone is open to that it may have been tried out or possibly even recorded. But absent any proof, I'm going with it wasn't recorded.

It appears you haven't read the 84 pages here.

In the course of the discussion, while avoiding the minefield of trolling done by a handful a selfish members, one may note we have discussed many reasons to consider the possibility it was taped by Elvis in 1954.

And yet, you completely reject every single point?

For many, Elvis' OWN WORDS are proof that something went on back in 1954 with "Tiger Man" at Sun Records.

And yet, that alone is not enough?

Consider these facts:

Until 1983, there was no definitive proof that "When It Rains It Pours" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Until 1986, there was no definitive proof that "How Do You Think I Feel?" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Until 1992, there was no definitive proof that "Fool, Fool, Fool" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at KDAV Radio in Lubbock.

Until 1997, there was no definitive proof that "I'll Never Stand In Your Way" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Until 1999, there was no definitive proof that "It Wouldn't Be The Same (Without You)" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

And yet, there is not a chance what Elvis was talking about, again and again and again in 1970, has a shred of credibility?

I know where I stand.

I have in fact read all (now) 85 pages of this topic.

I would agree (and I think everyone else has agreed) that the possibility does indeed exist that Elvis tried Tiger Man at Sun. Absent any proof, however, in the way of an acetate, paperwork, tape, etc. it seems (at least to me anyway) unlikely that it was recorded.

Your trolls comment aside, several well reasoned arguments have been made (including by me) that it wasn't recorded. I would argue that there is a greater possibility that it was at least tried or run through only.

The only points that I'm aware of off the top of my head that serve as proof is that Elvis made a few statements in 1970 that Tiger Man (or Mystery Train) was his second record and that not many people heard it.

As far as if Elvis' own words have any credibility, to me, for the most part, no, they don't. This is the same man who claimed variously over the years from the stage that he didn't use drugs/wasn't a drug addict, he wore a bullet proof vest on stage, and that contrary to what people heard he was in great shape and any rumors to the contrary weren't to be believed. We all of course know better than that.

Yes, your facts regarding undiscovered Sun/Radio Station recordings are good ones. However, by your own research it shows that NOTHING has been found in 19 years. And interestingly, concerted efforts were made to find unreleased Sun material for the Boy From Tupelo set. Some interesting and exciting finds were made but conspicuously, no Tiger Man. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong but Tiger Man wasn't even mentioned in that defining set. That speaks volumes in itself.

What we do know is the following RCA/Sony/FTD employees don't have it or couldn't find any evidence of it: Ernst Jorgensen and Roger Semon.

Further, super collectors like Sheriff Hanna, Russ Howe, Sean O'Neil, Jerry Osborne, Joseph Tunzi, Paul Dowling, Ger Ryff, and Paul Lichter apparently don't have it, either. If they did I have no doubt that they would have lent/leased it to FTD.

Lastly, Ernst has again remained conspicuously silent on the topic and in all of his research and writings Peter Guralnick couldn't/didn't find anything to support the contention that it "must" have been recorded and "acetates must have been pressed."

Again, EVERYONE is in agreement that Tiger Man was most likely tried at Sun and EVERYONE would welcome a recording of it. We are all in AGREEMENT on that point. The FACT that there is no evidence whatsoever other than a few comments made by Elvis in 1970 (and then never referred to again despite the fact that he performed the song many more times over the years) would seem to indicate that it wasn't recorded.

[poormadpeter2]

So really, what we have after 84 pages and however many years, no definitive proof that Tiger Man was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Everyone is open to that it may have been tried out or possibly even recorded. But absent any proof, I'm going with it wasn't recorded.

It appears you haven't read the 84 pages here.

In the course of the discussion, while avoiding the minefield of trolling done by a handful a selfish members, one may note we have discussed many reasons to consider the possibility it was taped by Elvis in 1954.

And yet, you completely reject every single point?

For many, Elvis' OWN WORDS are proof that something went on back in 1954 with "Tiger Man" at Sun Records.

And yet, that alone is not enough?

Consider these facts:

Until 1983, there was no definitive proof that "When It Rains It Pours" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Until 1986, there was no definitive proof that "How Do You Think I Feel?" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Until 1992, there was no definitive proof that "Fool, Fool, Fool" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at KDAV Radio in Lubbock.

Until 1997, there was no definitive proof that "I'll Never Stand In Your Way" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Until 1999, there was no definitive proof that "It Wouldn't Be The Same (Without You)" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

And yet, there is not a chance what Elvis was talking about, again and again and again in 1970, has a shred of credibility?

I know where I stand.

I have in fact read all (now) 85 pages of this topic.

I would agree (and I think everyone else has agreed) that the possibility does indeed exist that Elvis tried Tiger Man at Sun. Absent any proof, however, in the way of an acetate, paperwork, tape, etc. it seems (at least to me anyway) unlikely that it was recorded.

Your trolls comment aside, several well reasoned arguments have been made (including by me) that it wasn't recorded. I would argue that there is a greater possibility that it was at least tried or run through only.

The only points that I'm aware of off the top of my head that serve as proof is that Elvis made a few statements in 1970 that Tiger Man (or Mystery Train) was his second record and that not many people heard it.

As far as if Elvis' own words have any credibility, to me, for the most part, no, they don't. This is the same man who claimed variously over the years from the stage that he didn't use drugs/wasn't a drug addict, he wore a bullet proof vest on stage, and that contrary to what people heard he was in great shape and any rumors to the contrary weren't to be believed. We all of course know better than that.

Yes, your facts regarding undiscovered Sun/Radio Station recordings are good ones. However, by your own research it shows that NOTHING has been found in 19 years. And interestingly, concerted efforts were made to find unreleased Sun material for the Boy From Tupelo set. Some interesting and exciting finds were made but conspicuously, no Tiger Man. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong but Tiger Man wasn't even mentioned in that defining set. That speaks volumes in itself.

What we do know is the following RCA/Sony/FTD employees don't have it or couldn't find any evidence of it: Ernst Jorgensen and Roger Semon.

Further, super collectors like Sheriff Hanna, Russ Howe, Sean O'Neil, Jerry Osborne, Joseph Tunzi, Paul Dowling, Ger Ryff, and Paul Lichter apparently don't have it, either. If they did I have no doubt that they would have lent/leased it to FTD.

Lastly, Ernst has again remained conspicuously silent on the topic and in all of his research and writings Peter Guralnick couldn't/didn't find anything to support the contention that it "must" have been recorded and "acetates must have been pressed."

Again, EVERYONE is in agreement that Tiger Man was most likely tried at Sun and EVERYONE would welcome a recording of it. We are all in AGREEMENT on that point. The FACT that there is no evidence whatsoever other than a few comments made by Elvis in 1970 (and then never referred to again despite the fact that he performed the song many more times over the years) would seem to indicate that it wasn't recorded.

This sums up the situation aptly. And again reiterates my point that if the opening post hadn't jumped to a conclusion about a definite recording and acetates being pressed, we wouldn't be here, still on this thread today - which, I should add, was revived last week for no purpose whatsoever other than to "bump" it.

[drjohncarpenter]

Below are some brief replies, but every single thing I write has been discussed in (now) 85 pages of this topic.

Maybe consider giving it a full review before posting again?

I would agree (and I think everyone else has agreed) that the possibility does indeed exist that Elvis tried Tiger Man at Sun. Absent any proof, however, in the way of an acetate, paperwork, tape, etc. it seems (at least to me anyway) unlikely that it was recorded.

That reads like a contradiction. I know where I stand.

Your trolls comment aside, several well reasoned arguments have been made (including by me) that it wasn't recorded. I would argue that there is a greater possibility that it was at least tried or run through only.

Elvis would never have made a reference to "my second record" if that was the case.

The only points that I'm aware of off the top of my head that serve as proof is that Elvis made a few statements in 1970 that Tiger Man (or Mystery Train) was his second record and that not many people heard it.

EIGHT known recordings in the space of just SIX days, captured by chance by fans recording the shows from the audience, is not "a few statements." And every single one frames a standalone performance of "Tiger Man." And this after beginning the engagement doing the song in a medley with "Mystery Train."

As far as if Elvis' own words have any credibility, to me, for the most part, no, they don't. This is the same man who claimed variously over the years from the stage that he didn't use drugs/wasn't a drug addict, he wore a bullet proof vest on stage, and that contrary to what people heard he was in great shape and any rumors to the contrary weren't to be believed. We all of course know better than that.

Your examples are the words of an unwell man, made in concerts from 1974 and 1977. To use them to dismiss anything Presley ever said on a stage is folly. In 1970 he was sittin' on top of the world, and the MGM documentary makes clear he was in charge from day one of the summer 1970 engagement. In addition, it is a FACT that when Elvis cared about discussing his live and career, he was deadly accurate. Close friends are on record that his memory from the early days was razor-sharp.

Again, EVERYONE is in agreement that Tiger Man was most likely tried at Sun and EVERYONE would welcome a recording of it. We are all in AGREEMENT on that point. The FACT that there is no evidence whatsoever other than a few comments made by Elvis in 1970 (and then never referred to again despite the fact that he performed the song many more times over the years) would seem to indicate that it wasn't recorded.

Never? You do need to revisit the topic. There are references to "second record" in later concerts captured from audience recordings in 1971 and 1972.

Yes, your facts regarding undiscovered Sun/Radio Station recordings are good ones. However, by your own research it shows that NOTHING has been found in 19 years. And interestingly, concerted efforts were made to find unreleased Sun material for the Boy From Tupelo set. Some interesting and exciting finds were made but conspicuously, no Tiger Man. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong but Tiger Man wasn't even mentioned in that defining set. That speaks volumes in itself.

I offer a half-dozen examples of previously-unknown songs and they are only "good ones"? It entirely dismisses your point about possibilities and expectations. The FTD project devoted time to researching and uncovering anything and everything about the period. There was no "concerted effort" to find unreleased Sun material." Although it is a FACT that they did find unreleased material.

And, yes, you are wrong about what "speaks volumes" in that "defining set."

More than a dozen unreleased titles have been rumoured to have been recorded during Elvis' stay at Sun Records, but few seem likely. One clue comes directly from Elvis during his summer 1970 engagement in Las Vegas, where he introduced a standalone performance of "Tiger Man": "This was my second record, but not too many people heard it." The inclusion of "Tiger Man" in the small combo segment of his 1968 TV special also implies it was a song that Elvis might have tried at Sun ...

Ernst Jørgensen, A Boy From Tupelo (Follow That Dream, August 16, 2012), p. 18

[Domino]

I've asked this once before and no one could answer it.
If Elvis was so mixed up that he incorrectly claimed to have a record that he never did then why are there no other claims ?
Sure he mixed up dated and the order of the recordings sometimes but never another time claimed that he recorded a cover of another song that he didn't do.
Out of 23 years every time he said he recorded something in a serious way,it was recorded by him.If he didn't have a record of it he said so or said who originally recorded it.
Why this one time he says repeatedly that he had a record and it's thrown out like a comment by a drug polluted singer ?
I said before,Elvis was there,we weren't.In all the songs he ran through in search of a second record,it's clear by his words that Tigerman was for a short time , the next one.
He's sharing a little known piece of Sun history here.He was there. This was only 16 years later when he said this.He wasn't mixed up.It was a piece of the puzzle that went unnoticed till audience recordings were discovered.
Someone said here that he said it a few times and then never again even though he did the song again.
He didn't keep the show identical for the last 7 years.If he didn't add and take away stuff from year to year he wouldn't have lasted long after 1970.
HE was there.WE weren't.

[drjohncarpenter]

I've asked this once before and no one could answer it.

If Elvis was so mixed up that he incorrectly claimed to have a record that he never did then why are there no other claims ?

Sure he mixed up dated and the order of the recordings sometimes but never another time claimed that he recorded a cover of another song that he didn't do.

Out of 23 years every time he said he recorded something in a serious way,it was recorded by him.If he didn't have a record of it he said so or said who originally recorded it.

Why this one time he says repeatedly that he had a record and it's thrown out like a comment by a drug polluted singer ?

I said before,Elvis was there,we weren't.In all the songs he ran through in search of a second record,it's clear by his words that Tigerman was for a short time , the next one.

He's sharing a little known piece of Sun history here.He was there. This was only 16 years later when he said this.He wasn't mixed up.It was a piece of the puzzle that went unnoticed till audience recordings were discovered.

Someone said here that he said it a few times and then never again even though he did the song again.

He didn't keep the show identical for the last 7 years.If he didn't add and take away stuff from year to year he wouldn't have lasted long after 1970.
HE was there.WE weren't.

That person was mistaken.

Your post underscores what I have written. His comments, captured on tape in the summer of 1970, are compelling and significant. Period.

And bear in mind there are maybe 35 apparently unrecorded performances from August-September 1970 at the International. I am willing to wager that finding them would probably double the number of times we hear Elvis refer to "Tiger Man" in the exact same manner detailed on page 1.

Maybe someday we'll learn who or what sparked this selection in his set list, and his pointed introductions. That would be another key to unlocking the mystery.

[fn2drive]

[quote="drjohncarpenter on Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:48 pm"

[/quote]


Maybe someday we'll learn who or what sparked this selection in his set list, and his pointed introductions. That would be another key to unlocking the mystery.[/quote]

This. And thanks for this topic.

[jacob]

So really, what we have after 84 pages and however many years, no definitive proof that Tiger Man was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Everyone is open to that it may have been tried out or possibly even recorded. But absent any proof, I'm going with it wasn't recorded.

It appears you haven't read the 84 pages here.

In the course of the discussion, while avoiding the minefield of trolling done by a handful a selfish members, one may note we have discussed many reasons to consider the possibility it was taped by Elvis in 1954.

And yet, you completely reject every single point?

For many, Elvis' OWN WORDS are proof that something went on back in 1954 with "Tiger Man" at Sun Records.

And yet, that alone is not enough?

Consider these facts:

Until 1983, there was no definitive proof that "When It Rains It Pours" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Until 1986, there was no definitive proof that "How Do You Think I Feel?" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Until 1992, there was no definitive proof that "Fool, Fool, Fool" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at KDAV Radio in Lubbock.

Until 1997, there was no definitive proof that "I'll Never Stand In Your Way" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Until 1999, there was no definitive proof that "It Wouldn't Be The Same (Without You)" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

And yet, there is not a chance what Elvis was talking about, again and again and again in 1970, has a shred of credibility?

I know where I stand.

I have in fact read all (now) 85 pages of this topic.

I would agree (and I think everyone else has agreed) that the possibility does indeed exist that Elvis tried Tiger Man at Sun. Absent any proof, however, in the way of an acetate, paperwork, tape, etc. it seems (at least to me anyway) unlikely that it was recorded.

Your trolls comment aside, several well reasoned arguments have been made (including by me) that it wasn't recorded. I would argue that there is a greater possibility that it was at least tried or run through only.

The only points that I'm aware of off the top of my head that serve as proof is that Elvis made a few statements in 1970 that Tiger Man (or Mystery Train) was his second record and that not many people heard it.

As far as if Elvis' own words have any credibility, to me, for the most part, no, they don't. This is the same man who claimed variously over the years from the stage that he didn't use drugs/wasn't a drug addict, he wore a bullet proof vest on stage, and that contrary to what people heard he was in great shape and any rumors to the contrary weren't to be believed. We all of course know better than that.

Yes, your facts regarding undiscovered Sun/Radio Station recordings are good ones. However, by your own research it shows that NOTHING has been found in 19 years. And interestingly, concerted efforts were made to find unreleased Sun material for the Boy From Tupelo set. Some interesting and exciting finds were made but conspicuously, no Tiger Man. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong but Tiger Man wasn't even mentioned in that defining set. That speaks volumes in itself.

What we do know is the following RCA/Sony/FTD employees don't have it or couldn't find any evidence of it: Ernst Jorgensen and Roger Semon.

Further, super collectors like Sheriff Hanna, Russ Howe, Sean O'Neil, Jerry Osborne, Joseph Tunzi, Paul Dowling, Ger Ryff, and Paul Lichter apparently don't have it, either. If they did I have no doubt that they would have lent/leased it to FTD.

Lastly, Ernst has again remained conspicuously silent on the topic and in all of his research and writings Peter Guralnick couldn't/didn't find anything to support the contention that it "must" have been recorded and "acetates must have been pressed."

Again, EVERYONE is in agreement that Tiger Man was most likely tried at Sun and EVERYONE would welcome a recording of it. We are all in AGREEMENT on that point. The FACT that there is no evidence whatsoever other than a few comments made by Elvis in 1970 (and then never referred to again despite the fact that he performed the song many more times over the years) would seem to indicate that it wasn't recorded.

It's funny you say that as earlier I was listing to the 1956 Warwick Hotel interview and when talking about My Happiness he says he has the record at home,my understanding was this recording was in the possesion of Ed Leek from just after it was made? Who's right on this one? And this interview was just a few years after he made the disc.
For the record I do believe he tried out Tiger Man at Sun and who knows what went to Indianapolis in 1959?

[goldbelt]

In addition, it is a FACT that when Elvis cared about discussing his live and career, he was deadly accurate. Close friends are on record that his memory from the early days was razor-sharp.

When discussing his LIFE and career whilst on stage, he was NOT 'deadly accurate' with such comments at all - and THAT is the point you seem intent to ignore.

Such misinformation needs to be challenged.

Historical accuracy was never important in such on stage comments, and they were certainly never intended to be given close scrutiny over four decades later.

During the 1969 life story monologues for example, you find Elvis telling audiences, night after night, show after show, of how the record he made in his lunch hour was put out by the record company over a year later. That's not even close to being accurate.

Or how about how he goes on to say that he only did THREE Gleason shows then was on TWO OR THREE Ed Sullivan's show (no mention of Berle), then AFTER Sullivan's Show he went onto the Steve Allen show (24th August 1969 ds). Allen show AFTER Sullivan show!

Anyone wishing to read through the 80 plus pages of replies on this topic will find a lot of considered reasoning as to why a handful of comments from August 1970 do nothing to substantiate a claim that Tiger Man was a second acetate cut at SUN.

[poormadpeter2]

So really, what we have after 84 pages and however many years, no definitive proof that Tiger Man was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Everyone is open to that it may have been tried out or possibly even recorded. But absent any proof, I'm going with it wasn't recorded.

It appears you haven't read the 84 pages here.

In the course of the discussion, while avoiding the minefield of trolling done by a handful a selfish members, one may note we have discussed many reasons to consider the possibility it was taped by Elvis in 1954.

And yet, you completely reject every single point?

For many, Elvis' OWN WORDS are proof that something went on back in 1954 with "Tiger Man" at Sun Records.

And yet, that alone is not enough?

Consider these facts:

Until 1983, there was no definitive proof that "When It Rains It Pours" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Until 1986, there was no definitive proof that "How Do You Think I Feel?" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Until 1992, there was no definitive proof that "Fool, Fool, Fool" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at KDAV Radio in Lubbock.

Until 1997, there was no definitive proof that "I'll Never Stand In Your Way" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Until 1999, there was no definitive proof that "It Wouldn't Be The Same (Without You)" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

And yet, there is not a chance what Elvis was talking about, again and again and again in 1970, has a shred of credibility?

I know where I stand.

I have in fact read all (now) 85 pages of this topic.

I would agree (and I think everyone else has agreed) that the possibility does indeed exist that Elvis tried Tiger Man at Sun. Absent any proof, however, in the way of an acetate, paperwork, tape, etc. it seems (at least to me anyway) unlikely that it was recorded.

Your trolls comment aside, several well reasoned arguments have been made (including by me) that it wasn't recorded. I would argue that there is a greater possibility that it was at least tried or run through only.

The only points that I'm aware of off the top of my head that serve as proof is that Elvis made a few statements in 1970 that Tiger Man (or Mystery Train) was his second record and that not many people heard it.

As far as if Elvis' own words have any credibility, to me, for the most part, no, they don't. This is the same man who claimed variously over the years from the stage that he didn't use drugs/wasn't a drug addict, he wore a bullet proof vest on stage, and that contrary to what people heard he was in great shape and any rumors to the contrary weren't to be believed. We all of course know better than that.

Yes, your facts regarding undiscovered Sun/Radio Station recordings are good ones. However, by your own research it shows that NOTHING has been found in 19 years. And interestingly, concerted efforts were made to find unreleased Sun material for the Boy From Tupelo set. Some interesting and exciting finds were made but conspicuously, no Tiger Man. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong but Tiger Man wasn't even mentioned in that defining set. That speaks volumes in itself.

What we do know is the following RCA/Sony/FTD employees don't have it or couldn't find any evidence of it: Ernst Jorgensen and Roger Semon.

Further, super collectors like Sheriff Hanna, Russ Howe, Sean O'Neil, Jerry Osborne, Joseph Tunzi, Paul Dowling, Ger Ryff, and Paul Lichter apparently don't have it, either. If they did I have no doubt that they would have lent/leased it to FTD.

Lastly, Ernst has again remained conspicuously silent on the topic and in all of his research and writings Peter Guralnick couldn't/didn't find anything to support the contention that it "must" have been recorded and "acetates must have been pressed."

Again, EVERYONE is in agreement that Tiger Man was most likely tried at Sun and EVERYONE would welcome a recording of it. We are all in AGREEMENT on that point. The FACT that there is no evidence whatsoever other than a few comments made by Elvis in 1970 (and then never referred to again despite the fact that he performed the song many more times over the years) would seem to indicate that it wasn't recorded.

It's funny you say that as earlier I was listing to the 1956 Warwick Hotel interview and when talking about My Happiness he says he has the record at home,my understanding was this recording was in the possesion of Ed Leek from just after it was made? Who's right on this one? And this interview was just a few years after he made the disc.
For the record I do believe he tried out Tiger Man at Sun and who knows what went to Indianapolis in 1959?

I think the most pertinent example of not believing what Elvis said on stage comes from 1969 when, with a completely straight face, he tells audiences performance after performance that he made the private record in 1953 and then Sam Phillips put it out and it became a regional hit. It is a good example, of how Elvis gave small elements of the truth (there was a demo, and his first release was a regional hit), but what he is saying is otherwise untrue. The same issue clearly applies to the Tiger Man intros.

"I went into a record company one day, during my lunch break to make a record. For my own use. And the guy put the record out about a year and a half later." (August 22, 1969, dinner show).

"Oh yeah, I went in to make a record...anyway, the guy put the record out about a year and a half later." (August 26, 1969, dinner show)

"I went into this little record company to make a record. I made a record for my own use. I really wasn't trying to get into the business....and the guy put the record out about a year and a half later." (August 23, 1969, midnight show)

And so it goes on.

Now, if we're going to believe what he says on stage about Tiger Man, we have to believe that My Happiness was his first single.

And do we? No, we do not.

[Domino]

So really, what we have after 84 pages and however many years, no definitive proof that Tiger Man was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Everyone is open to that it may have been tried out or possibly even recorded. But absent any proof, I'm going with it wasn't recorded.

It appears you haven't read the 84 pages here.

In the course of the discussion, while avoiding the minefield of trolling done by a handful a selfish members, one may note we have discussed many reasons to consider the possibility it was taped by Elvis in 1954.

And yet, you completely reject every single point?

For many, Elvis' OWN WORDS are proof that something went on back in 1954 with "Tiger Man" at Sun Records.

And yet, that alone is not enough?

Consider these facts:

Until 1983, there was no definitive proof that "When It Rains It Pours" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Until 1986, there was no definitive proof that "How Do You Think I Feel?" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Until 1992, there was no definitive proof that "Fool, Fool, Fool" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at KDAV Radio in Lubbock.

Until 1997, there was no definitive proof that "I'll Never Stand In Your Way" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Until 1999, there was no definitive proof that "It Wouldn't Be The Same (Without You)" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

And yet, there is not a chance what Elvis was talking about, again and again and again in 1970, has a shred of credibility?

I know where I stand.

I have in fact read all (now) 85 pages of this topic.

I would agree (and I think everyone else has agreed) that the possibility does indeed exist that Elvis tried Tiger Man at Sun. Absent any proof, however, in the way of an acetate, paperwork, tape, etc. it seems (at least to me anyway) unlikely that it was recorded.

Your trolls comment aside, several well reasoned arguments have been made (including by me) that it wasn't recorded. I would argue that there is a greater possibility that it was at least tried or run through only.

The only points that I'm aware of off the top of my head that serve as proof is that Elvis made a few statements in 1970 that Tiger Man (or Mystery Train) was his second record and that not many people heard it.

As far as if Elvis' own words have any credibility, to me, for the most part, no, they don't. This is the same man who claimed variously over the years from the stage that he didn't use drugs/wasn't a drug addict, he wore a bullet proof vest on stage, and that contrary to what people heard he was in great shape and any rumors to the contrary weren't to be believed. We all of course know better than that.

Yes, your facts regarding undiscovered Sun/Radio Station recordings are good ones. However, by your own research it shows that NOTHING has been found in 19 years. And interestingly, concerted efforts were made to find unreleased Sun material for the Boy From Tupelo set. Some interesting and exciting finds were made but conspicuously, no Tiger Man. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong but Tiger Man wasn't even mentioned in that defining set. That speaks volumes in itself.

What we do know is the following RCA/Sony/FTD employees don't have it or couldn't find any evidence of it: Ernst Jorgensen and Roger Semon.

Further, super collectors like Sheriff Hanna, Russ Howe, Sean O'Neil, Jerry Osborne, Joseph Tunzi, Paul Dowling, Ger Ryff, and Paul Lichter apparently don't have it, either. If they did I have no doubt that they would have lent/leased it to FTD.

Lastly, Ernst has again remained conspicuously silent on the topic and in all of his research and writings Peter Guralnick couldn't/didn't find anything to support the contention that it "must" have been recorded and "acetates must have been pressed."

Again, EVERYONE is in agreement that Tiger Man was most likely tried at Sun and EVERYONE would welcome a recording of it. We are all in AGREEMENT on that point. The FACT that there is no evidence whatsoever other than a few comments made by Elvis in 1970 (and then never referred to again despite the fact that he performed the song many more times over the years) would seem to indicate that it wasn't recorded.

It's funny you say that as earlier I was listing to the 1956 Warwick Hotel interview and when talking about My Happiness he says he has the record at home,my understanding was this recording was in the possesion of Ed Leek from just after it was made? Who's right on this one? And this interview was just a few years after he made the disc.
For the record I do believe he tried out Tiger Man at Sun and who knows what went to Indianapolis in 1959?

I think the most pertinent example of not believing what Elvis said on stage comes from 1969 when, with a completely straight face, he tells audiences performance after performance that he made the private record in 1953 and then Sam Phillips put it out and it became a regional hit. It is a good example, of how Elvis gave small elements of the truth (there was a demo, and his first release was a regional hit), but what he is saying is otherwise untrue. The same issue clearly applies to the Tiger Man intros.

"I went into a record company one day, during my lunch break to make a record. For my own use. And the guy put the record out about a year and a half later." (August 22, 1969, dinner show).

"Oh yeah, I went in to make a record...anyway, the guy put the record out about a year and a half later." (August 26, 1969, dinner show)

"I went into this little record company to make a record. I made a record for my own use. I really wasn't trying to get into the business....and the guy put the record out about a year and a half later." (August 23, 1969, midnight show)

And so it goes on.

Now, if we're going to believe what he says on stage about Tiger Man, we have to believe that My Happiness was his first single.

And do we? No, we do not.

Where does he say by name "My Happiness" ? When That's All right was recorded it was a demonstration record until a flip side was found and then released.Did they already know they were going to release That's All Right when Sam took it to Dewey to play ? I'd say not.
I'd bet Elvis is referring to That's All Right ,not My Happiness.

[drjohncarpenter]

It's funny you say that as earlier I was listing to the 1956 Warwick Hotel interview and when talking about My Happiness he says he has the record at home,my understanding was this recording was in the possesion of Ed Leek from just after it was made? Who's right on this one? And this interview was just a few years after he made the disc.

For the record I do believe he tried out Tiger Man at Sun and who knows what went to Indianapolis in 1959?

Your understanding about "My Happiness" is incorrect. The March 1956 interview, given almost three years after Presley made the personal recording, is a casual reply. Elvis may have meant his Memphis home, or been referring to his friend's house back home in Memphis. It was not a crucial detail. More importantly, in that same interview he makes clear the disc was made for his own purposes, not as a "gift" for his mom, an old, incorrect legend that has been told so many times.

530718_MRS acetate_01.JPG

530718_MRS acetate_02.JPG

The two-sided personal disc spent some time at Ed Leek's because he lent Elvis the money to make it. Then Elvis had it available for public consumption for a while by getting it put on the jukebox at his favorite local haunt, Charlie's Record Shop. Then it probably sat at his home, along with his second acetate, done about six months later.

[goldbelt]

What a ridiculous reply - none of my statements below have been proven wrong - you only have to listen to the 1969 life story monologues.

In addition, it is a FACT that when Elvis cared about discussing his live and career, he was deadly accurate. Close friends are on record that his memory from the early days was razor-sharp.

When discussing his LIFE and career whilst on stage, he was NOT 'deadly accurate' with such comments at all - and THAT is the point you seem intent to ignore.

Such misinformation needs to be challenged.

Historical accuracy was never important in such on stage comments, and they were certainly never intended to be given close scrutiny over four decades later.

During the 1969 life story monologues for example, you find Elvis telling audiences, night after night, show after show, of how the record he made in his lunch hour was put out by the record company over a year later. That's not even close to being accurate.

Or how about how he goes on to say that he only did THREE Gleason shows then was on TWO OR THREE Ed Sullivan's show (no mention of Berle), then AFTER Sullivan's Show he went onto the Steve Allen show (24th August 1969 ds). Allen show AFTER Sullivan show!

Anyone wishing to read through the 80 plus pages of replies on this topic will find a lot of considered reasoning as to why a handful of comments from August 1970 do nothing to substantiate a claim that Tiger Man was a second acetate cut at SUN.

[jacob]

It's funny you say that as earlier I was listing to the 1956 Warwick Hotel interview and when talking about My Happiness he says he has the record at home,my understanding was this recording was in the possesion of Ed Leek from just after it was made? Who's right on this one? And this interview was just a few years after he made the disc.

For the record I do believe he tried out Tiger Man at Sun and who knows what went to Indianapolis in 1959?

Your understanding about "My Happiness" is incorrect. The March 1956 interview, given almost three years after Presley made the personal recording, is a casual reply. Elvis may have meant his Memphis home, or been referring to his friend's house back home in Memphis. It was not a crucial detail. More importantly, in that same interview he makes clear the disc was made for his own purposes, not as a "gift" for his mom, an old, incorrect legend that has been told so many times.

530718_MRS acetate_01.JPG

530718_MRS acetate_02.JPG

The two-sided personal disc spent some time at Ed Leek's because he lent Elvis the money to make it. Then Elvis had it available for public consumption for a while by getting it put on the jukebox at his favorite local haunt, Charlie's Record Shop. Then it probably sat at his home, along with his second acetate, done about six months later.

In addition, it is a FACT that when Elvis cared about discussing his life and career, he was deadly accurate. Close friends are on record that his memory from the early days was razor-sharp.

When discussing his LIFE and career whilst on stage ...

We have discussed this already on the topic.

As when you first posted this stuff, your statements were proven wrong, and you need to move on.

Here's an idea: create your own topic.

Thank you.

I think the most pertinent ...

We have discussed this already on the topic.

As when you first posted this stuff, your statements were proven wrong, and you need to move on.

Here's an idea: create your own topic. You've already POSTED OVER 200 TIMES on this one.

Thank you.

I never knew that but how did it get back to Ed Leek? I read it was in the possession of his family for six decades?

[DEH]

So really, what we have after 84 pages and however many years, no definitive proof that Tiger Man was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Everyone is open to that it may have been tried out or possibly even recorded. But absent any proof, I'm going with it wasn't recorded.

It appears you haven't read the 84 pages here.

In the course of the discussion, while avoiding the minefield of trolling done by a handful a selfish members, one may note we have discussed many reasons to consider the possibility it was taped by Elvis in 1954.

And yet, you completely reject every single point?

For many, Elvis' OWN WORDS are proof that something went on back in 1954 with "Tiger Man" at Sun Records.

And yet, that alone is not enough?

Consider these facts:

Until 1983, there was no definitive proof that "When It Rains It Pours" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Until 1986, there was no definitive proof that "How Do You Think I Feel?" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Until 1992, there was no definitive proof that "Fool, Fool, Fool" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at KDAV Radio in Lubbock.

Until 1997, there was no definitive proof that "I'll Never Stand In Your Way" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

Until 1999, there was no definitive proof that "It Wouldn't Be The Same (Without You)" was recorded in any way, shape, or form at Sun.

And yet, there is not a chance what Elvis was talking about, again and again and again in 1970, has a shred of credibility?

I know where I stand.

I have in fact read all (now) 85 pages of this topic.

I would agree (and I think everyone else has agreed) that the possibility does indeed exist that Elvis tried Tiger Man at Sun. Absent any proof, however, in the way of an acetate, paperwork, tape, etc. it seems (at least to me anyway) unlikely that it was recorded.

Your trolls comment aside, several well reasoned arguments have been made (including by me) that it wasn't recorded. I would argue that there is a greater possibility that it was at least tried or run through only.

The only points that I'm aware of off the top of my head that serve as proof is that Elvis made a few statements in 1970 that Tiger Man (or Mystery Train) was his second record and that not many people heard it.

As far as if Elvis' own words have any credibility, to me, for the most part, no, they don't. This is the same man who claimed variously over the years from the stage that he didn't use drugs/wasn't a drug addict, he wore a bullet proof vest on stage, and that contrary to what people heard he was in great shape and any rumors to the contrary weren't to be believed. We all of course know better than that.

Yes, your facts regarding undiscovered Sun/Radio Station recordings are good ones. However, by your own research it shows that NOTHING has been found in 19 years. And interestingly, concerted efforts were made to find unreleased Sun material for the Boy From Tupelo set. Some interesting and exciting finds were made but conspicuously, no Tiger Man. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong but Tiger Man wasn't even mentioned in that defining set. That speaks volumes in itself.

What we do know is the following RCA/Sony/FTD employees don't have it or couldn't find any evidence of it: Ernst Jorgensen and Roger Semon.

Further, super collectors like Sheriff Hanna, Russ Howe, Sean O'Neil, Jerry Osborne, Joseph Tunzi, Paul Dowling, Ger Ryff, and Paul Lichter apparently don't have it, either. If they did I have no doubt that they would have lent/leased it to FTD.

Lastly, Ernst has again remained conspicuously silent on the topic and in all of his research and writings Peter Guralnick couldn't/didn't find anything to support the contention that it "must" have been recorded and "acetates must have been pressed."

Again, EVERYONE is in agreement that Tiger Man was most likely tried at Sun and EVERYONE would welcome a recording of it. We are all in AGREEMENT on that point. The FACT that there is no evidence whatsoever other than a few comments made by Elvis in 1970 (and then never referred to again despite the fact that he performed the song many more times over the years) would seem to indicate that it wasn't recorded.

It's funny you say that as earlier I was listing to the 1956 Warwick Hotel interview and when talking about My Happiness he says he has the record at home,my understanding was this recording was in the possesion of Ed Leek from just after it was made? Who's right on this one? And this interview was just a few years after he made the disc.
For the record I do believe he tried out Tiger Man at Sun and who knows what went to Indianapolis in 1959?

I think the most pertinent example of not believing what Elvis said on stage comes from 1969 when, with a completely straight face, he tells audiences performance after performance that he made the private record in 1953 and then Sam Phillips put it out and it became a regional hit. It is a good example, of how Elvis gave small elements of the truth (there was a demo, and his first release was a regional hit), but what he is saying is otherwise untrue. The same issue clearly applies to the Tiger Man intros.

"I went into a record company one day, during my lunch break to make a record. For my own use. And the guy put the record out about a year and a half later." (August 22, 1969, dinner show).

"Oh yeah, I went in to make a record...anyway, the guy put the record out about a year and a half later." (August 26, 1969, dinner show)

"I went into this little record company to make a record. I made a record for my own use. I really wasn't trying to get into the business....and the guy put the record out about a year and a half later." (August 23, 1969, midnight show)

And so it goes on.

Now, if we're going to believe what he says on stage about Tiger Man, we have to believe that My Happiness was his first single.

And do we? No, we do not.

Amen. a lot what Elvis said on stage was NOT TRUE. we can list the examples all day. and we have.

[Greg1995]

I don't know is this of any importance to anybody but I'll say it anyway.
Three months ago I talked to a guy who runs a german funclub and is also a big private collector.
I asked about "Tiger Man" recording possibility and he said "No".
He had brought up this question to a man who was responsible at SUN
for running recording equipment while Sam was in a recording booth.

[drjohncarpenter]

The two-sided personal disc spent some time at Ed Leek's because he lent Elvis the money to make it. Then Elvis had it available for public consumption for a while by getting it put on the jukebox at his favorite local haunt, Charlie's Record Shop. Then it probably sat at his home, along with his second acetate, done about six months later.

I never knew that but how did it get back to Ed Leek? I read it was in the possession of his family for six decades?

Elvis and Ed were very good friends in high school, and stayed in touch until Presley went into the army in 1958. Leek kept the disc until he went public with its existence in the summer of 1988, which is about thirty years of keeping it in his sole possession. He noted he tried through the years to return it to his old friend, but was always told to "keep it."

Elvis tidbits help feed the legend

Here it is, folks, the first totally Elvis "Music Row" column.

I can't help it there were just too much juicy Presley tidbits lying around to let them go to waste. Besides, it's Elvis International Tribute Week in Memphis, the one time each year that our sister Tennessee music city outshines us. The rarest Elvis record, perhaps the most valuable record of all time, has been found.

The record collector magazine Goldmine announced in a copyrighted story in this month's issue that Florida TWA pilot Ed Leek has the one-of-a-kind 10-inch acetate of My Happiness / That's When Your Heartaches Begin that 18-year-old Presley recorded as a present for his mother's birthday in 1953 [sic]. It is universally acknowledged as The King's first preserved vocal. Leek was Elvis' high school buddy. He's retiring this year and contacted Goldmine to find a buyer for his long-held "nest egg." One expert estimates its worth as perhaps $500,000.

Nashville Tennessean - Wednesday, August 17, 1988
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/112969728/

How cool to think there may be an acetate of Tiger Man lurking about, just waiting to be (re)discovered.

Yes it is very cool to think about this, and that is the point of this topic.

[James1954]

I think that Presley probably did fool around with Tiger Man and a recording may have been made. Phillips routinely recorded everything and then wiped over it, especially if it wasn't very good. An acetate could have been made because they had a lathe, Phillips did this a lot too. I know that the guys at Bear Family have for various projects been through every extant piece of tape left from Sun - they found various bits and pieces, interesting to obscure rockabilly collectors (half a Jimmy Wages song) but no Presley material.

I'm happy to take the pledge, if it's found I won't listen to or purchase it, because it's probably not worth the time, that's why Phillips wiped it. Now if it were Charlie Feathers, that'd be a different story.

[drjohncarpenter]

I think that Presley probably did fool around with Tiger Man and a recording may have been made. Phillips routinely recorded everything and then wiped over it, especially if it wasn't very good. An acetate could have been made because they had a lathe, Phillips did this a lot too. I know that the guys at Bear Family have for various projects been through every extant piece of tape left from Sun - they found various bits and pieces, interesting to obscure rockabilly collectors (half a Jimmy Wages song) but no Presley material.

I'm happy to take the pledge, if it's found I won't listen to or purchase it, because it's probably not worth the time, that's why Phillips wiped it. Now if it were Charlie Feathers, that'd be a different story.

We don't know exactly what Sam did and didn't wipe.

[poormadpeter2]

It is worth nothing that, in the second episode, That's All Right is seen on a jukebox and it's next to Crazy by Patsy Cline. I'm sure there's some great thought gone into that too.

[Keith]

It is worth nothing that, in the second episode, That's All Right is seen on a jukebox and it's next to Crazy by Patsy Cline. I'm sure there's some great thought gone into that too.

Shame on you Shane for mentioning that. Any deep Elvis Presley fan should know that if a record is shown next to an Elvis record in the HBO documentary it means that Elvis must have recorded that song, or at least tried that song out at Sun!

Don't you know anything?



Keith

[sweetangeline]

Shame on you Shane

Don't you know anything?

this is so tempting

[Domino]

It is worth nothing that, in the second episode, That's All Right is seen on a jukebox and it's next to Crazy by Patsy Cline. I'm sure there's some great thought gone into that too.

You mean that non alphabetical and non all Sun record jukebox ?