Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

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Re: Elvis Recorded

Post by drjohncarpenter »

When In Rome wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:43 pm
While it would undoubtedly be a inconceivably great find, should we also consider that it may have been excruciatingly awful or deeply embarrassing in some way that they purposefully (?) destroyed every moment of any recorded master of it or indeed if they even committed it to tape in any form in the first place.

Presumably no alleged masters were held back due to publishing issues then somehow taped over by accident? Regardless, they seemingly never felt inclined to re-attempt the song in those formative years, whereas several SUN 'try-outs' were re-attempted over at RCA.

Fascinating stuff...


Given the extant Sun tapes from 1954, there is not a single example of anything "excruciatingly awful or deeply embarrassing in some way."

The idea that Sam Phillips would have allowed Elvis to run on and on with precious recording tape on any such thing, kept it for a while, and later decided to erase or "destroy every moment" is simply absurd. He would have stopped the tape cold immediately, and stepped onto the studio floor to discuss what was not working.

It is definitely a pleasure to know that the guys in charge of the Elvis catalog for nearly thirty years not only read this topic, but tacitly acknowledged my research by fully accepting the premise.

It makes the handful of naysayers exactly what they appear to be: bitter and envious. Too bad, the information was always out there, I was the one who put it all together and shared it with every good member of this forum.

:smt023
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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by rollinson1 »

Whether Elvis' Tiger Man at Sun was put to tape or not is in all honesty conjecture, which does not mean that he didn't try it out. From all the information we have in all probability he did. Unless the tape comes to life which is very unlikely we will never know whether it was actually recorded. That said the research given in this post is very thought provoking and I don't think people should throw it out just because of who originated it. Whatever you think of a person should not cloud your judgement to how good they are at what they do and Dr. John Carpenter brings a lot of knowledge to this board. The Sam Phillips assessment is 100% spot on.
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Re: Elvis Recorded

Post by iplayastrat »

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:23 am

It makes the handful of naysayers exactly what they appear to be: bitter and envious. Too bad, the information was always out there, I was the one who put it all together and shared it with every good member of this forum.
You sure like to talk about how great you are.
Word of advice, let others do the talking.

Since Elvis said he recorded Tiger Man himself,
as I heard him say on an uploaded CD to YouTube just
a few days ago. It seems more likely. Unfortunately
it doesn't mean it's true.

I'll take Elvis' word to mean it's quite possible he did
record it. So unless you were the one who recorded
him that night - you get no credit.

Since you never saw Elvis live in concert, I guess it would've
been impossible for you to record the evidence. So, three
cheers for the guy/gal who was there to record it. We can
have a small hope that we might get to hear it one day.
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Re: Elvis Recorded

Post by When In Rome »

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:23 am


Given the extant Sun tapes from 1954, there is not a single example of anything "excruciatingly awful or deeply embarrassing in some way."

The idea that Sam Phillips would have allowed Elvis to run on and on with precious recording tape on any such thing, kept it for a while, and later decided to erase or "destroy every moment" is simply absurd. He would have stopped the tape cold immediately, and stepped onto the studio floor to discuss what was not working.
How Do You Think I Feel was not considered worthy and erased over.
drjohncarpenter wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:23 am

It is definitely a pleasure to know that the guys in charge of the Elvis catalog for nearly thirty years not only read this topic, but tacitly acknowledged my research by fully accepting the premise.

It makes the handful of naysayers exactly what they appear to be: bitter and envious. Too bad, the information was always out there, I was the one who put it all together and shared it with every good member of this forum.

:smt023
Ernst mentions the 'Tiger Man' theory way back in his 1998 book 'A Life In Music'.
Capture.JPG
All in all, I must confess, I'm still not exactly sure what new evidence has been brought to the table in this topic...
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Re: Elvis Recorded

Post by drjohncarpenter »

When In Rome wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:40 am
drjohncarpenter wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:23 am
Given the extant Sun tapes from 1954, there is not a single example of anything "excruciatingly awful or deeply embarrassing in some way."

The idea that Sam Phillips would have allowed Elvis to run on and on with precious recording tape on any such thing, kept it for a while, and later decided to erase or "destroy every moment" is simply absurd. He would have stopped the tape cold immediately, and stepped onto the studio floor to discuss what was not working.


How Do You Think I Feel was not considered worthy and erased over.


There is no evidence I'm aware of someone felt it was unworthy. Who made that claim?

And your particular example was not "erased over." We still have the slap back tape reel where you can hear Elvis, Scotty, Bill and Jimmy running through the song.

It is almost certainly true that Sam recorded other songs on Elvis, namely the material going over well at the singer's live shows. Some examples would include "Shake, Rattle and Roll," "I Got A Woman," "Tweedlee Dee," "Money Honey," "Hearts of Stone," maybe even "Love Me."

But when Elvis hit upon something Sam felt was better for the next single, the other songs went back on his shelf to be recycled. Phillips was not willfully destroying the performances, he made the decision it was cheaper to not retain material on recording tape he might never use. He believed tape was expensive and that was his thought process.




When In Rome wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:40 am
drjohncarpenter wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:23 am
It is definitely a pleasure to know that the guys in charge of the Elvis catalog for nearly thirty years not only read this topic, but tacitly acknowledged my research by fully accepting the premise.

It makes the handful of naysayers exactly what they appear to be: bitter and envious. Too bad, the information was always out there, I was the one who put it all together and shared it with every good member of this forum.

:smt023


Ernst mentions the 'Tiger Man' theory way back in his 1998 book 'A Life In Music'.

Image


All in all, I must confess, I'm still not exactly sure what new evidence has been brought to the table in this topic...


Your comments here indicate you have not dedicated yourself to this topic. Ernst's 1998 observation was well addressed many pages ago. And that you are "unsure" about the information out there that I put all together only serves to underscore that lack of dedication. I'm surprised and disappointed.
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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by drjohncarpenter »

rollinson1 wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:11 am
Whether Elvis' Tiger Man at Sun was put to tape or not is in all honesty conjecture, which does not mean that he didn't try it out. From all the information we have in all probability he did. Unless the tape comes to life which is very unlikely we will never know whether it was actually recorded. That said the research given in this post is very thought provoking and I don't think people should throw it out just because of who originated it. Whatever you think of a person should not cloud your judgement to how good they are at what they do and Dr. John Carpenter brings a lot of knowledge to this board. The Sam Phillips assessment is 100% spot on.


Thank you.
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Re: Elvis Recorded

Post by pmp »

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:38 pm

Your comments here indicate you have not dedicated yourself to this topic. Ernst's 1998 observation was well addressed many pages ago. And that you are "unsure" about the information conjecture out there that I put all together only serves to underscore that lack of dedication. I'm surprised and disappointed.
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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by jetblack »

Without any solid evidence everything to do with 'Tiger Man' being tried or recorded at Sun is indeed pure conjecture.

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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by Spellbinder »

jetblack wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:49 pm
Without any solid evidence everything to do with 'Tiger Man' being tried or recorded at Sun is indeed pure conjecture.

Andy
I'm not sure what you mean by "solid" evidence. There is evidence that he recorded it at Sun - he told us he did.
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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by bajo »

The only sure thing about Tiger Man: "The record never came out"! :(
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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by drjohncarpenter »

Spellbinder wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:03 pm
jetblack wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:49 pm
Without any solid evidence everything to do with 'Tiger Man' being tried or recorded at Sun is indeed pure conjecture.

Andy

I'm not sure what you mean by "solid" evidence. There is evidence that he recorded it at Sun - he told us he did.


Thank you.

Of course, had "jetblack" actually invested in this topic, he would have seen this evidence cited several times during the discussion.

It's not conjecture, it's Elvis' own words, captured on tape, said with tongue firmly not in cheek. And he said it at multiple shows in 1970, right before doing the song.

As I said, there are some very petty and jealous forum members out there. They've been a part of this topic almost from day one.

Bummer.

:D
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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by DEH »

I guess Elvis was the only person who remembered it happening. :)
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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by Domino »

DEH wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:12 am
I guess Elvis was the only person who remembered it happening. :)
I'd say there's been a lot of lost recordings,photos and film that's surfaced over the last few years and it stayed lost until someone found it not because someone remembered it and yet it did happen.An example is that piece of film of Elvis with Johnny Cash.Has there been anyone come forward and say they remember that day and yet there is film of it.If we had a recording of Elvis saying he met up with Johnny Cash and he showed him some dance moves that he was going to use in Jailhouse Rock ,everyone would think he's full of it.
So it's very possible that something could happen in Elvis's life and not be remembered.
Elvis is talking about something happening 16 years ago.How many years had past by before anyone asked Scotty ?
8) "Well sir,to be honest with you,we just stumbled upon it." - 1954
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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by jetblack »

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:04 am

Of course, had "jetblack" actually invested in this topic, he would have seen this evidence cited several times during the discussion.

It's not conjecture, it's Elvis' own words, captured on tape, said with tongue firmly not in cheek. And he said it at multiple shows in 1970, right before doing the song.

As I said, there are some very petty and jealous forum members out there. They've been a part of this topic almost from day one.

Bummer.

:D
We all know Elvis said MANY things during the years that are simply not true or misremembered.

If one wants to believe the 'Tiger Man' myth so be it. I don't. The reason, there is not one iota of documented evidence or discussion by anyone there at the time. Just a 'forum member' that states in a topic 'mystery solved' when it is anything but.

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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by Spellbinder »

jetblack wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:00 pm
drjohncarpenter wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:04 am

Of course, had "jetblack" actually invested in this topic, he would have seen this evidence cited several times during the discussion.

It's not conjecture, it's Elvis' own words, captured on tape, said with tongue firmly not in cheek. And he said it at multiple shows in 1970, right before doing the song.

As I said, there are some very petty and jealous forum members out there. They've been a part of this topic almost from day one.

Bummer.

:D
We all know Elvis said MANY things during the years that are simply not true or misremembered.

If one wants to believe the 'Tiger Man' myth so be it. I don't. The reason, there is not one iota of documented evidence or discussion by anyone there at the time. Just a 'forum member' that states in a topic 'mystery solved' when it is anything but.

Andy
Not true - Elvis was there at the time and he said he recorded it.
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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by jetblack »

Spellbinder wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:50 pm
Not true - Elvis was there at the time and he said he recorded it.
He also stated that he recorded 'Are You Lonesome Tonight' in 1927 and that 'Stranger In The Crowd' would be out in 1982.

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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by Steve Morse »

"Good Evening. My name is Wayne Newton."
"Won't you sing me away to a summer night - let me hold her in my arms again"

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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by DEH »

In 1975 introducing The Wonder Of You multiple times.. "A song I recorded about 2 years ago." Is there a unknown version from 1973 we have not heard? :roll: :roll:
Last edited by DEH on Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by Rob »

"This is a song I did on the Ed Sullivan show in 1912."

In the case of "Tiger Man," Elvis wasn't joking. He said it too many times in a serious tone to make me believe otherwise. However, we wont hear it because he either misremembered or there is no tape of it being recorded. When Elvis made this statement on stage in Las Vegas, I truly believe that he thought he recorded it, and this fan would love to hear it.

If a Sun version is ever released, I'm smooching somebody's ass.
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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by jetblack »

Steve Morse wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:37 pm
"Good Evening. My name is Wayne Newton."
:)

He also introduced himself as Johnny Cash, Tom Jones, Glen Campbell and others.

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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by DEH »

Domino wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:59 am
DEH wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:12 am
I guess Elvis was the only person who remembered it happening. :)
I'd say there's been a lot of lost recordings,photos and film that's surfaced over the last few years and it stayed lost until someone found it not because someone remembered it and yet it did happen.An example is that piece of film of Elvis with Johnny Cash.Has there been anyone come forward and say they remember that day and yet there is film of it.If we had a recording of Elvis saying he met up with Johnny Cash and he showed him some dance moves that he was going to use in Jailhouse Rock ,everyone would think he's full of it.
So it's very possible that something could happen in Elvis's life and not be remembered.
Elvis is talking about something happening 16 years ago.How many years had past by before anyone asked Scotty ?
Well Scotty remembered a lot of other things but he did not remember that.
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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by Domino »

Rob wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:57 pm


In the case of "Tiger Man," Elvis wasn't joking. He said it too many times in a serious tone to make me believe otherwise. However, we wont hear it because he either misremembered or there is no tape of it being recorded. When Elvis made this statement on stage in Las Vegas, I truly believe that he thought he recorded it, and this fan would love to hear it.
Right,very possible.After recording hundreds of songs and trying songs in rehearsal he could really believe he recorded it.
It can happen the other way too.I would bet there are many artists who if you told them you liked a particular song,maybe a B side or album cut and they would say "I recorded that ?"

But like you say he isn't joking when he says it.He remembers that song in the studio at Sun Records at the start of his career.
8) "Well sir,to be honest with you,we just stumbled upon it." - 1954
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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by Domino »

DEH wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:03 pm
Domino wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:59 am
DEH wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:12 am
I guess Elvis was the only person who remembered it happening. :)
I'd say there's been a lot of lost recordings,photos and film that's surfaced over the last few years and it stayed lost until someone found it not because someone remembered it and yet it did happen.An example is that piece of film of Elvis with Johnny Cash.Has there been anyone come forward and say they remember that day and yet there is film of it.If we had a recording of Elvis saying he met up with Johnny Cash and he showed him some dance moves that he was going to use in Jailhouse Rock ,everyone would think he's full of it.
So it's very possible that something could happen in Elvis's life and not be remembered.
Elvis is talking about something happening 16 years ago.How many years had past by before anyone asked Scotty ?
Well Scotty remembered a lot of other things but he did not remember that.
This was posted earlier.
He says it was his second record in each show .At 55:06 and 1:54:56.Not said as a joke at all.

8) "Well sir,to be honest with you,we just stumbled upon it." - 1954
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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by BobDylan »

jetblack wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:00 pm
drjohncarpenter wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:04 am

Of course, had "jetblack" actually invested in this topic, he would have seen this evidence cited several times during the discussion.

It's not conjecture, it's Elvis' own words, captured on tape, said with tongue firmly not in cheek. And he said it at multiple shows in 1970, right before doing the song.

As I said, there are some very petty and jealous forum members out there. They've been a part of this topic almost from day one.

Bummer.

:D
We all know Elvis said MANY things during the years that are simply not true or misremembered.

If one wants to believe the 'Tiger Man' myth so be it. I don't. The reason, there is not one iota of documented evidence or discussion by anyone there at the time. Just a 'forum member' that states in a topic 'mystery solved' when it is anything but.

Andy
The sad thing is, I don't think anyone here flatly discounts the possibility that Elvis tried Tiger Man out at Sun, and may have had it put to tape. There may well have been other songs that they ran through and put to tape but were later erased, recorded over, or got lost.

The problem the OP runs into is the assumption that acetates must have been pressed and then distributed to DJ's for their review. In all the years since the Sun sessions there is absolutely no shred of evidence that this happened. No recording logs, no receipts, no correspondence, no paperwork, no tapes, and no acetates. If we are to truly believe the acetate story then you have to believe that multiple acetates were pressed and sent out yet not even one has survived. In all the years since and the massive research that has been done, miles traveled, ads placed, inquires made, libraries gone through... nothing. No set lists from the surviving newspaper reviews mention the song being song then (even allusions to the lyrics), no fan diaries or remembrances mention it, and Scotty Moore himself said it never happened. Certainly if Sam had taken the time to cut acetates (and that would mean that even a somewhat acceptable take was recorded, surely Scotty would have remembered THAT) and sent them out, then you would think that Elvis would have sung the song in concert. After all, he was known to sing songs, even back then, that he apparently never recorded so if an acceptable take was made and acetates pressed, wouldn't he have wanted to promote it? Otherwise wasn't he wasting his time?

I'm sorry but a somewhat off the cuff reference to something that may or may not have happened 15 or 16 years before is a long from way from proof. People who want to believe the story take it at face value yet insist that Scotty Moore forgot, misremembered, or was flat out wrong. You can't have it both ways. Either a take was deemed acceptable for release and acetates pressed or they weren't. And there is zero credible evidence to support the assertion that this is what happened.

If Tiger Man was a failure and not too many people heard it, then why not repeat the process with Good Rockin' Tonight just in case the response was lukewarm as the OP would have you believe was true of Tiger Man. Which is odd because everyone generally agrees that even later in Elvis' career Tiger Man was a show stopper. Why not rush release it back in 1954 or 1955? Certainly back then it would have been even more raw and more in the vein of That's All Right Mama.

I'm sorry but the "must have pressed acetates" story falls flat. Tiger Man very well may have been run through and put on tape but that is a long way from proving the rest of the story. Despite Elvis' comments to the contrary.
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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Post by drjohncarpenter »

Domino wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:12 pm
Right,very possible.After recording hundreds of songs and trying songs in rehearsal he could really believe he recorded it.
It can happen the other way too.I would bet there are many artists who if you told them you liked a particular song,maybe a B side or album cut and they would say "I recorded that ?"

But like you say he isn't joking when he says it.He remembers that song in the studio at Sun Records at the start of his career.


And Elvis makes the statement again, and again, and again, in a series of live performances of "Tiger Man" ALL BY ITSELF.

Yet, at the beginning of this same summer 1970 engagement, not to mention the summer 1969 shows, Elvis used "Tiger Man" in a medley with "Mystery Train," another Sun number.

These facts are not mere coincidences. They are pertinent to the discussion.

We are very lucky a couple of super-fans taped these August 1970 shows or we would not have the evidence of the MAN himself doing this. It was not a single, "off the cuff" comment.

But, of course, the naysayers have not devoted any time to the discussion which I began here on August 24, 2010.

Every critique you see on this page alone has already been made several times, and credibly and completely refuted. Pages 1-87 are there for anyone to read, anytime they wish.

But these one-sentence complainers aren't about the debate. Or the fact that Elvis was serious in this example.

They're mad that they didn't find this first. They're jealous that a crucial part of Elvis' Sun history was given a very bright light by another forum member.

Too bad.

:smt006
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