minkahed wrote:Hey Doc, For historical purposes, what would a "good number of substandard, and sometimes downright embarrassing recordings from 1970 to 1977" be again ?
None of these 35 tracks add a thing to the great legacy of Elvis Presley's recorded work.
All were taped under Felton Jarvis' watch.
The "dirty dozen" worst are in red.
1970 The Sound of Your Cry
This Is Our Dance Life
There Goes My Everything
If I Were You
Only Believe
Sylvia
Where Did They Go, Lord? 1971
Miracle of the Rosary Padre
Silver Bells
Help Me Make It Through the Night
An Evening Prayer
We Can Make the Morning Love Me, Love the Life I Lead
Put Your Hand in the Hand
He Is My Everything
There Is No God But God 1972
Where Do I Go from Here? Fool 1973
Three Corn Patches
Take Good Care of Her
Girl of Mine
Sweet Angeline Mr. Songman Love Song of the Year My Boy
Talk About the Good Times 1975 Woman Without Love
Bringing It Back
Pieces of My Life 1976 The Last Farewell Solitaire I'll Never Fall in Love Again
It's Easy for You
I suspect that some of those numbers counts as bad because of the lyrics. As I have English as second language, I sometimes miss the point, why a song is so bad. Two examples are "Where did they go, Lord", and "The Sound of your cry". As Elvis performances of those two are committed, it must be the lyrics?
From a performance point of view, my most painful (not in a particual order) listening 1970-1977 are:
Girl of mine
Padre
Love me, love the life I lead
I´ll never fall in love again
Never again
Only believe
This is our dance
An evening prayer
Silver bells
If I were you
On the other side, I really like those on the list:
Talk about the good times
Pieces of my life
It´s easy for you
and the two mentioned before.
I am not surprised about such a list from Johnny. He gives his personal opinion as a general statement everybody has to cling to.
I have learned that a basic rule in communication is to make clear that statements like this have to be put in a context like "In my opinion...". Still I am certain that some egocentric, self-loving individuals have never learned to understand that their personal opinion is most likely not matching for a lot of other people.
"WW2 in Europe ended in 1945" is what is called fact. It did not end in 1944 nor in '46.
To call a personal list "canon for Elvis world" has hardly anything to do with fact.
Furthermore: with calling your list of Elvis "worst works of the 70es" the ultimate truth you put down evry single Elvis fan as well as casual listener who loves any of the songs posted. This tells a lot about your self understanding and your view on other people. I don't trust that you own any truth and will not accept that you put down my liking of the songs you have put into your list.
A lot of the songs you call Elvis worst work from the 70es and without any meaning to his overall work were actually songs that got me started being Elvis fan. And that does mean something. If it was not for these songs I might have never discovered Elvis at all.
Funny enough, a lot of the songs you have included in your positive list of essential recordings never appealed to me at all and would have most likely not caught my attention in the first place.
So much for your overall truth.
And I will ask all of you guys who love to laugh their a*** off about the like of "My Boy" and so on to take a step back and respect other peoples opinion. That the likes of you and the doc do not like a certain song or consoder it sub par or whatsoever is fine - but it does not give you the right to put it to ridicule: and with doing so put other fans there as well.
Thank you for showing some respect.
...this is no time for siesta, this is time for fun!
Your list Dreambear is pretty similar to mine, although I don´t mind "I´ll never fall in love again" or "If I were you".
The songs you like on that list I agree upon.
The worst song of the entire list would be "This is our dance" closely followed by "Girl of mine" IMO!
Yes, I'm sure ... regardless of somebody else's words, whoever's they are.
Raised on Rock, structurally speaking, is not a well-built song. The gears grind quite badly and repeatedly. Lyrically, it's corny as hell and entirely unconvincing. The ridiculousness of Elvis singing it, yeah, that doesn't help. But fundamentally it's just a piss-poor excuse for a composition. It's really a drag.
We Can Make the Morning, on the other hand, actually flows quite nicely -- compositionally speaking. Although I'm not listening to it as I write this, I can't recall a moment that isn't musical, doesn't follow its own internal logic and at any point doesn't accomplish exactly what it sets out to do, which is to be a pretty satisfying pop tune.
High art? Meh.
Elvis did about an album's worth of mellow '70s music that is quite decent and almost completely overlooked. Personally it's generally not my groove most of the time, but I find it pleasant enough and offbeat enough that I can certainly enjoy it. This song falls right in the same range as I'm Leavin', as far as I'm concerned, and that song has come in for a fair amount of praise here recently.
Raised on Rock, in my opinion, is hopelessly overrated by some people who apparently will overlook almost any defect, no matter how glaring, in their desperation to hear Elvis "rock" again.
Well, there's supposed to be a bit of "roll" to that rock, and that song rolls about as well as a triangular wheel.
likethebike wrote:"Life" may have been a favor for Lamar. But I can see the reason why he allowed himself to be talked into it. It tries to say something. It fails, but it does try. The ridiculous post-Dylan idea that songs have to make some great heavy statements in song was the reason songs like that were written and recorded.
If you think Elvis didn't believe in "Padre", "Sound of Your Cry," "Help Me Make it Through the Night" (again a great song that for some reason didn't inspire Elvis in the studio, although it was a staple of the stage act) and some of the others on the list, you're kidding yourself.
Again, as I have said many times before, there's no need to be sad over any of this. If you didn't get That's the Way it Is,Elvis Country, "Burning Love," "Promised Land," "T-R-O-U-B-L-E," "Loving Arms," "I've Got a Thing About You Baby," "Always on My Mind," "Polk Salad Annie," "Merry Christmas Baby" and so many others, then you'd have cause to be sad. You don't see Bob Dylan fans cutting their wrists over Live at Budokan or Street Legal do ya?
Brian- I'm not a fan of "Sylvia" but I should point out that there was once an Elvis scholar named Ron Barry who collected one of the first Elvis discographies in the mid-1970s and used to host an all Elvis radio show in my area. He picked "Sylvia" as his all time favorite Elvis recording on the show. He especially lavished praise on Felton's overdubs.
LTB, great points, as usual. One would think Elvis was the only legend who ever missed the mark once in a while. Are the Beatles or the Stones without blemish? Only fan-boys say so. And God love'em for it, too but it 's entirely subjective.
I'm a long-time defender of the concept of the '70s Elvis box, which had the notion that if distilled correctly (give or take a bad choice like the exclusion of "In the Early morning Rain") his work stood up very well on its own, thank you. The hostility of some to his later persona and choices can be linked to one's musical world-view and personal preference. Velvet Underground or, say, Sex Pistol fans (hardly an objective or natural hard-stick for quality) are never going to get into anything that smacks of "Middle of the Road" singing and pop music, which is what many at root find offensive about '70s Elvis. That's fine but it's not necessarily the view we should all have.
Yes, there is a thing called the consensus and most of this work falls short of that , no doubt. But even a consensus can be wrong or picked apart as a from of "group think." For instance, the reviewers, writers, and readers of SPIN and ROLLING STONE (which at least acknowledges some of his legacy) have certain key points of view you are assumed and expected to tap into in order to belong and be taken seriously.
I doubt they go beyond lip service to '50s rock (ironically something they lament Elvis fell out of favor with) or blues, jazz and certainly things like big bands (Sinatra, Artie Shaw, Glenn Miller; or a giant like Bing Crosby, who outside of Gary Giddins is seen as some icon of bland and bad middle-American pre-rock taste. If it's pre-64, it had better be Carl Perkins ("never got enough attention") or some kind of token salt of the earth types: Hank Williams, Robert Johnson, Johnny Cash, etc. I happen to have an omniverous taste for all of it but it seems inevitable that there will be "camps" and boundary lines.
While I enjoy music criticism, the negativity and even ridicule of the music here goes to a length that to me just is too negative. Nothing in his '70s era to my mind is as bad as "Yoga Is As Yoga Does, "Queenie Waheenie", etc. And even then, I love Elvis' eclectism and even the occasional dog is a great conversation starter. I have no problems with his legacy now and it is futile to fight wars that can't change anything. I don't then love it but I make peace with some of it.
Despite some decidedly subpar efforts, having long ago "digested" the '50s Elvis as a teen and 20-something, in 2009 as a man in the age period of Elvis when he sang "My Boy", I actualy prefer the '70s Elvis over the yelping, teenage-friendly rocker of the '50s. Sorry boys. That's just my opinion, naturally.
It doesn't mean that I don't regularly enjoy his rock and pop (etc.) of that era. I was enjoying the Sun Sessions just yesterday. But the '70s King is just fine by me, warts and all.
likethebike wrote:"Life" may have been a favor for Lamar. But I can see the reason why he allowed himself to be talked into it. It tries to say something. It fails, but it does try. The ridiculous post Dylan idea that songs have to make some great heavy statements in song was the reason songs like that were written and recorded.
Yes, he gave it a stab. But, the song fails on every level. It happens. And when it does happen, the misguided attempt should be tucked away in the back of the vaults, not issued as a single.
elVis112 wrote: And I will ask all of you guys who love to laugh their a*** off about the like of "My Boy" and so on to take a step back and respect other peoples opinion. That the likes of you and the doc do not like a certain song or consoder it sub par or whatsoever is fine - but it does not give you the right to put it to ridicule: and with doing so put other fans there as well.
Thank you for showing some respect.
Demanding other people have and state weakly expressed opinions is in fact the exact type of "say-what-I-want-the-way-I-want-you-to-say-it" fascism you and others accuse Doc etc. of. Laughable and offensive, in fact.
Your opinions can't stand up to someone else saying the opposite opinion, strongly? That is just weak, and bullishly trying to force others to be weak pod people ain't no solution.
elVis112 wrote: And I will ask all of you guys who love to laugh their a*** off about the like of "My Boy" and so on to take a step back and respect other peoples opinion. That the likes of you and the doc do not like a certain song or consoder it sub par or whatsoever is fine - but it does not give you the right to put it to ridicule: and with doing so put other fans there as well.
Thank you for showing some respect.
Demanding other people have and state weakly expressed opinions is in fact the exact type of "say-what-I-want-the-way-I-want-you-to-say-it" fascism you and others accuse Doc etc. of. Laughable and offensive, in fact.
Your opinions can't stand up to someone else saying the opposite opinion, strongly? That is just weak, and bullishly trying to force others to be weak pod people ain't no solution.
You completely miss the point. I have not said that I want people to have my opinion. I have not said that I can not stand other peoples opinions. And I have not said that I - how do you put it? - MOR Elvis <snipped> Where you read that in my words is beyond my imagination.
I have asked that no one tries to speak for everybody. I have also asked that no one puts other people to ridicule because of what songs they personally do like or do not like.
For me personally there are songs I love from the 50es, 60es and 70es as much as there are songs I rather do not want to hear - or I do not understand what people find so great about. But where exactly is the point if somebody on this board steps up and proclaims to be the ultimate measure of things and tell people what is good music and what is bad music?
I know it has not always been like this in Elvis land but it is an ever growing habit. The Doc is one of the persons I have personally found involved in such statements more often than others.
A good friend of mine is a lot like him. He is a very intelligent person, he finds easy access to very complex issues and has an incredible overall knowledge. On the other hand he would be the same person writing down his personal conclusions and tell you that this will be the only truth and whatever you will have to say against this is simply based on either lack of understanding, knowledge of the wider scheme of things or simply plain stupidity and ignorance.
Still I feel that it is not as simple as that.
And I will recite myself saying: if I love any of the songs somebody else compiles in a list of worst songs recorded by Elvis (and I don't care if this is about the 50s, 60s, 70s or from beyond the grave) and the same person - or a couple of persons on this board to be more precisely - repeatedly puts down other peoples opinions on these songs or make fun of the song and the people loving it, then it is most likely not me who is doing wrong here. Plus as I have said earlier as well: if any of these oh so bad songs have not been recorded by Elvis some people would have never been Elvis fans in the first place.
It is up to you if you wish I had never been a fan or not but I personally do love a lot of the songs on this list and a lot of the songs Johnny and others love to make their fun about. And as much as I respect what they personally do like or do not like I want them to respect others opinion as well.
If you still do not want to understand what I try to say so be it. But never ever again dare to call me a fascist!
...this is no time for siesta, this is time for fun!
elVis112 wrote: But never ever again dare to call me a fascist!
Someone claiming that a person putting down a piece of music is, by extension, insulting the fans of that piece of music personally is either that or, I dunno, deficient.
I liked some of the songs Doc listed as well. I said so. Do I feel like he put me down when he stated those songs weren't any good, those songs that for me, sound good? No, and if I did, that would mean my feelings about those songs did not stand up to any challenge whatsoever. I have more confidence in myself than that. I would also recommend that state of being to others, though I wouldn't demand it, as you seem to with your views.
I have asked that no one tries to speak for everybody
elVis112 wrote:I have learned that a basic rule in communication is to make clear that statements like this have to be put in a context like "In my opinion..."
Here's something you have apparently not noticed on this and many other phpBB-based forums.
Take a peek to the left of each and every post made on FECC: there is a column marked "Author."
Beneath it is a hypertext link that displays the log-in name of the person who made the post.
I think that the Docs' list is mostly, but not completely, accurate. We must be honest to ourselves - Not vey much EP did in the 70's contributed to his legacy outside the circle of EP fans. He had his moments, but after the -69 sessions there were only a few great moments for non EP fans. Burning Love of course and a few others. That does not mean that he didn't deliver essential performances, he did. They did not have the same impact on the music world as his work in the 50's or in -68-69 though. On the Doc's list I think that Fool is an outstanding performance of a beautiful song, very 70's but still good. I also like Where do I go from here, even though Elvis was uninspired. I don't think Felton was much of a producer, but he is not to be blamed for the (deleted - see guideline #2) songs that were brought to Elvis. The Colonel and Elvis were responsible for that. Elvis did put down his foot in -69 and created masterpieces. He never had the balls/energy after that. Once and a while he got to sink his teeth in credible songs, but he also had to put up with a lot of crap songs. For an example "For ol' times sake" is a masterpiece, in fact one of his finest performances.
samses wrote:I think that the Docs' list is mostly, but not completely, accurate. We must be honest to ourselves - Not vey much EP did in the 70's contributed to his legacy outside the circle of EP fans. He had his moments, but after the -69 sessions there were only a few great moments for non EP fans. Burning Love of course and a few others. That does not mean that he didn't deliver essential performances, he did. They did not have the same impact on the music world as his work in the 50's or in -68-69 though. On the Doc's list I think that Fool is an outstanding performance of a beautiful song, very 70's but still good. I also like Where do I go from here, even though Elvis was uninspired. I don't think Felton was much of a producer, but he is not to be blamed for the (deleted - see guideline #2) songs that were brought to Elvis. The Colonel and Elvis were responsible for that. Elvis did put down his foot in -69 and created masterpieces. He never had the balls/energy after that. Once and a while he got to sink his teeth in credible songs, but he also had to put up with a lot of crap songs. For an example "For ol' times sake" is a masterpiece, in fact one of his finest performances.
I agree on the fact that Felton Jarvis wasn't a good producer. I never understood why Elvis was so fond of this guy. I disagree that the Colonel was responsible for the choice's of songs to record. I always thought the Colonel has no input at all, concerning recording sessions.
Of this 35 songs (somebody's PERSONAL opinion) list, on only 10 songs i agree. The other 25 are just fine by me. Even the original masters that finally came on the album. To call the ''dirty dozen'' and even color them red......................it's all PERSONAL.
3577 wrote:
I agree on the fact that Felton Jarvis wasn't a good producer. I never understood why Elvis was so fond of this guy. I disagree that the Colonel was responsible for the choice's of songs to record. I always thought the Colonel has no input at all, concerning recording sessions.
Jarvis was a "yes man" and was exactly the type of character Elvis enjoyed surrounding himself with. Jarvis was a safe choice and was easy to control. Many relevant producers would have walked right out of the Jungle Room sessions debacle had the recording star acted as unprofessionally as Elvis did during those sessions. Those sessions are a glaring example of how the producer lacked control over the direction of the proceedings. And Elvis had no reason to act any other way with Jarvis at the helm.
samses wrote:I think that the Docs' list is mostly, but not completely, accurate. We must be honest to ourselves - Not vey much EP did in the 70's contributed to his legacy outside the circle of EP fans. He had his moments, but after the -69 sessions there were only a few great moments for non EP fans. Burning Love of course and a few others. That does not mean that he didn't deliver essential performances, he did. They did not have the same impact on the music world as his work in the 50's or in -68-69 though. On the Doc's list I think that Fool is an outstanding performance of a beautiful song, very 70's but still good. I also like Where do I go from here, even though Elvis was uninspired. I don't think Felton was much of a producer, but he is not to be blamed for the (deleted - see guideline #2) songs that were brought to Elvis. The Colonel and Elvis were responsible for that. Elvis did put down his foot in -69 and created masterpieces. He never had the balls/energy after that. Once and a while he got to sink his teeth in credible songs, but he also had to put up with a lot of crap songs. For an example "For ol' times sake" is a masterpiece, in fact one of his finest performances.
He may have put his foot down in '69, but he remained powerless to stop his record company from releasing substandard leftovers. Chips mentioned this recently. It pissed him off at the time.
You can blame Felton all you want, but in order to fill the bucket for RCA, Elvis had to make due with whatever material was available. If the pressure to record in such large quantities wasn't ever-present, we wouldn't be having thois discussion today.
"Don't tell me to play it. I will when I get ready. Do you understand me?"
The question that has to be asked, Midnight, is would another producer have gotten anything? That's why I don't have a problem with Felton. He at least got something.
drjohncarpenter wrote:1970 The Sound of Your Cry
This Is Our Dance Life
There Goes My Everything
If I Were You
Only Believe
Sylvia
Where Did They Go, Lord? 1971
Miracle of the Rosary Padre
Silver Bells
Help Me Make It Through the Night
An Evening Prayer
We Can Make the Morning Love Me, Love the Life I Lead
Put Your Hand in the Hand
He Is My Everything
There Is No God But God 1972
Where Do I Go from Here? Fool 1973
Three Corn Patches
Take Good Care of Her
Girl of Mine
Sweet Angeline Mr. Songman Love Song of the Year My Boy
Talk About the Good Times 1975 Woman Without Love
Bringing It Back
Pieces of My Life 1976 The Last Farewell Solitaire I'll Never Fall in Love Again
It's Easy for You
likethebike wrote:The question that has to be asked, Midnight, is would another producer have gotten anything? That's why I don't have a problem with Felton. He at least got something.
Chips got something, Binder got something, Marty Passeta got something. They all challenged him and put him in a position where he had to proof himself.
Obviously this points to motivational issues on Elvis' behalf, but when properly handled, success could be reached.
Still, you got a fair point. One has only to listen to the 70's Walk A Mile In My Shoes set. A fairly decent set of songs, which still did not capture all.
So, to be fair and to even the scales, i again suggest a series of Felton Jarvis Hits.
3577 wrote:
I agree on the fact that Felton Jarvis wasn't a good producer. I never understood why Elvis was so fond of this guy. I disagree that the Colonel was responsible for the choice's of songs to record. I always thought the Colonel has no input at all, concerning recording sessions.
Jarvis was a "yes man" and was exactly the type of character Elvis enjoyed surrounding himself with. Jarvis was a safe choice and was easy to control. Many relevant producers would have walked right out of the Jungle Room sessions debacle had the recording star acted as unprofessionally as Elvis did during those sessions. Those sessions are a glaring example of how the producer lacked control over the direction of the proceedings. And Elvis had no reason to act any other way with Jarvis at the helm.
Maybe he was 'fond' of him because he was funny, smart, told great stories, knew the music business and their personalities meshed....and they may be the reasons why he was so fond of him as a producer too, he was a friend and I think Elvis was loyal to his friends.
Interesting list, Doc. Personally I love Pieces of My Life and We Can Make the Morning but agree that some of the others (Life) are dire.
