Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

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Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by drjohncarpenter »

KiwiAlan wrote:So

1957 LOC 1035 EPA 4108
1958 LOC 1035 EPA 4108
1959 March LPM 1951 with red cover
1959 October LPM 1951 with cover change EPA 4340

I note that Billboard charts in the early 60's treated both versions as the one entity
Unfortunately, your analysis is flawed, and the conclusions incorrect.

I'll be back in a few hours to post my latest findings, which blow another hole in the discography paradigm of Elvis' Christmas Album.


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Deleted User 930

Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by Deleted User 930 »

KiwiAlan wrote: 1957 LOC 1035 EPA 4108
1958 LOC 1035 EPA 4108
1959 March LPM 1951 with red cover
1959 October LPM 1951 with cover change EPA 4340
I don't think the Canadian LPM 1951 was released in March, there's no
reason for a Christmas album in March. That would place it in October 1959,
but since Barry knows he got his copy in 1958 .....
Maybe Barry can ask his friend from RCA Canada!




Barry

Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by Barry »

Hi Dick.
I checked with RCA Canada, but no release record.
The thing is RCA Canada needed a Christmas LP of Elvis for 1958, and as LOC-1035 was only in stock for 1957, and remember RCA Canada imported the U.S. cover and only pressed the record, stock was gone, quick fix --reissue it with almost the same cover, and a new number.



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Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by drjohncarpenter »

THEMEMPHISFAN wrote:... Let me remind you that if LPM-1951 (U.S.) turns out to be a 1959 release, you (drjohncarpenter) were the one adamantly insisting that it was a 1960 release.
Thanks for the reminder; I never said anything of the kind.

---

For everyone else, I have some VERY interesting additional information coming up.


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Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by Deleted User 930 »

Barry wrote:Hi Dick.
I checked with RCA Canada, but no release record.
The thing is RCA Canada needed a Christmas LP of Elvis for 1958, and as LOC-1035 was only in stock for 1957, and remember RCA Canada imported the U.S. cover and only pressed the record, stock was gone, quick fix --reissue it with almost the same cover, and a new number.
Fair enough Barry.
This seemed to be a quicky release which would fit to the list that KiwiAlan posted above.

I think that, as soon as RCA planned to release an album, they reserved a catalog number for it.
So the Jim Reeves album (LPM 1950) was planned around the same time as LPM 1951. But
since LPM 1951 was just a "copy and paste" job, it could have already been released in October 1958.
Correct me if I'm wrong.




Luuk

Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by Luuk »

Searched and learned that the Schwann Catalogue, a monthly* publication which lists all new releases, was there since 1948 so if anyone has copies of this publication can you please check when LPM-1951 was mentioned?

* For a while it was a monthly publication, for a while it was quarterly. In the 50's it was a monthly publication.



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Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by 3577 »

drjohncarpenter wrote:
THEMEMPHISFAN wrote:... Let me remind you that if LPM-1951 (U.S.) turns out to be a 1959 release, you (drjohncarpenter) were the one adamantly insisting that it was a 1960 release.
Thanks for the reminder; I never said anything of the kind.

---

For everyone else, I have some VERY interesting additional information coming up.
drjohncarpenter wrote:

POSSIBLE --> release of LPM 1951 in Nov 1959
Last edited by 3577 on Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by frus75 »

Mike Windgren wrote:Hi there!! :D :D :D
elvisfan_48079 wrote:Actually Doc, one chevron (stripe) indicates the rank of private E-2. If Elvis were a private 1st class (PFC) E-3 he would have one chevron with a rocker beneath it. Here are the ranks Elvis held during his military career;

E-1: private (often referred to as buck private)
E-2: private
E-3: private first class (PFC)
E-4: specialist 4th class (often referred to as spec4)
E-5: sargeant (often referred to as buck sargeant)

I'll leave it up to the more informed to provide the dates when he achieved each rank.
I´m actually a NATO OR-7 or an U.S.A Senior Chief Petty Officer, so Sergeant Elvis Presley salute! :lol:. Bye for now :smt006.

Mike Windgren.


I am a OF-1 (Alférez or Second Lieutenant) on the CIMIC Battalion on the Spanish Army on the voluntary reserve. I am about to promote to first lieutenant.


Iván

La voz del Rey


Francesc

Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by Francesc »

frus75 wrote:
Mike Windgren wrote:Hi there!! :D :D :D
elvisfan_48079 wrote:Actually Doc, one chevron (stripe) indicates the rank of private E-2. If Elvis were a private 1st class (PFC) E-3 he would have one chevron with a rocker beneath it. Here are the ranks Elvis held during his military career;

E-1: private (often referred to as buck private)
E-2: private
E-3: private first class (PFC)
E-4: specialist 4th class (often referred to as spec4)
E-5: sargeant (often referred to as buck sargeant)

I'll leave it up to the more informed to provide the dates when he achieved each rank.
I´m actually a NATO OR-7 or an U.S.A Senior Chief Petty Officer, so Sergeant Elvis Presley salute! :lol:. Bye for now :smt006.

Mike Windgren.


I am a OF-1 (Alférez or Second Lieutenant) on the CIMIC Battalion on the Spanish Army on the voluntary reserve. I am about to promote to first lieutenant.
Comooooooo? jo vaig anar a la mili ... 3 setmanes i fora ! :mrgreen: Epileptico! segons ells ...



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Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by Mike Windgren »

Hi there!! :D :D :D.
frus75 wrote:
Mike Windgren wrote:Hi there!! :D :D :D
elvisfan_48079 wrote:Actually Doc, one chevron (stripe) indicates the rank of private E-2. If Elvis were a private 1st class (PFC) E-3 he would have one chevron with a rocker beneath it. Here are the ranks Elvis held during his military career;

E-1: private (often referred to as buck private)
E-2: private
E-3: private first class (PFC)
E-4: specialist 4th class (often referred to as spec4)
E-5: sargeant (often referred to as buck sargeant)

I'll leave it up to the more informed to provide the dates when he achieved each rank.
I´m actually a NATO OR-7 or an U.S.A Senior Chief Petty Officer, so Sergeant Elvis Presley salute! :lol:. Bye for now :smt006.

Mike Windgren.


I am a OF-1 (Alférez or Second Lieutenant) on the CIMIC Battalion on the Spanish Army on the voluntary reserve. I am about to promote to first lieutenant.
Hola compañero de armas, aquí un suboficial de carrera desde Philadelphia trabajando para la Armada española bajo mandato NATO. Un saludo :smt006.

Mike Windgren.


Maestro. Mike Windgren. Torero!!!!!!!!.
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Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by drjohncarpenter »

As we pursue the release date of LPM 1951 -- circa Nov 1959 or 1960? -- another myth needs to be dispelled.

---

LOC 1035 -- the "deluxe" edition of Elvis' Christmas Album -- was apparently NOT deleted by RCA in 1958. Or 1959. Or ... 1963.

In fact, it is distinctive on Billboard's chart as late as December 1967!

It is clear now that RCA saw the "deluxe" package as able to coexist at retail with the stripped-down, new cover art version (LPM 1951). Fans could choose the edition they wanted from Santa at least until 1963, perhaps even until four years later.

---

A little more Christmas history, starting back in early 1958:


Image

Billboard - January 13, 1958
Elvis' Christmas Album - LOC 1035 hits #1 on the LP charts. Yay Elvis!



Image

Elvis and the Colonel Holiday Greetings, Billboard December 21, 1959
Nowhere in this or any 1959 Billboard is any mention of LPM 1951.


Billboard Dec 08 1962 p2.JPG
Billboard - December 8, 1962
Here we see Elvis' Christmas Album - LOC 1035 re-entering the charts at #143.

Elvis also hits #27 (Girls! Girls! Girls! - LPM 2621), #47 (Pot Luck - LPM 2523), and #118 (Blue Hawaii - LPM 2426).
Also, on the STEREO listing, Girls! Girls! Girls! - LSP 2621 appears at #36.



Billboard Dec 29 1962 p2.JPG
Billboard - December 29, 1962
Again we see Elvis' Christmas Album - LOC 1035 on the charts at #59.
Girls! Girls! Girls! - LPM 2621 is now at #5.




Some may feel that Billboard was making a mistake with the catalog number, or that LOC 1035 actually the album reissue using the original cover art, but history shows us something else:



Image

Billboard - December 7, 1963
11 - ELVIS' CHRISTMAS ALBUM, Elvis Presley, RCA Victor
LPM 1951 (M) and/or LOC 1035 (M); (No Stereo)
Here we see Elvis' Christmas Album - LOC 1035 and LPM 1951 BOTH being cited as available!



Image

Billboard - December 28, 1963
Again we see Elvis' Christmas Album - LOC 1035 and LPM 1951 BOTH being cited as available!



At Christmas 1964 and 1965, RCA pushed the reprocessed stereo version of LPM 1951.
No mention of LOC 1035:



Image

Billboard - December 5, 1964



Image

Billboard - December 2, 1965



In Nov 1966 there was a new holiday 45, along with LPM 1951 / LSP 1951e
No mention of LOC 1035:



Image

Billboard - Nov 26, 1966



The following week Billboard cited only LPM 1951 / LSP 1951e:

Billboard Dec 03 1966 p56.JPG
Billboard - December 3, 1966



At Christmas 1967, both LOC 1035 and LPM 1951 are highlighted!
Could this be correct?


Billboard Dec 02 1967 p8.JPG
Billboard - December 2, 1967



There was also a radio show for the 1967 holidays:

Image

Billboard - December 2, 1967



Finally, right after the phenomenal 1968 TV Special, RCA once again only offered LPM 1951 / LSP 1951:

Billboard Dec 07 1968 p82.JPG
Billboard - December 7, 1968

---


From all of this, it seems we cannot count the deluxe LOC 1035 out of the picture until at least Christmas 1964.

What do YOU think?
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Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by RonBaker2003 »

Wow! If it was available all those years, then can it possibly be less rare than it is assumed to be? Did any copy exist with monaural at the bottom of the label or do all copies say Long Play?




Barry

Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by Barry »

It's really amazing that LOC-1035 was only available in Canada for the 1957 Christmas Season, as it seems now that it was still available, for many years after in the U.S, rather confusing to say the least, odd that RCA Canada would not keep importing the the LOC 1035 cover with the photos, and continue pressing the record in Canada as they did in 1957.



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Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by Mister Mike »

The 1967 entry looks like a mistake by someone at Billboard since it is exactly the same, mistake and all (LPM 1961 instead of 1951), as the 1963 entry. Someone copied and pasted the wrong entry?


Elvis fan. From Sun to Sundial.


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Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by ekenee »

It also tells me that Billboard made no distinction between the original and the reissue.

They considered it one in the same album.

So my theory about one album canceling the other out is wrong because Billboard would add

both sales up and count it as one, since they really are the same album, just different covers and numbers.

I don't think that original LP was in the stores 10 years after the fact.

Soon the camden budget LP would be out, which is a different album, and it would compete.



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Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by drjohncarpenter »

ekenee wrote:It also tells me that Billboard made no distinction between the original and the reissue.
Billboard made GREAT distinction between the two, one of the core points of my previous post.
Last edited by drjohncarpenter on Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by KiwiAlan »

Actually, i think in 1963 charts listed both numbers bracketed together as though they were one disc.

All this dating is coming from one source.- Billboard.

Makes you wonder why

Jerry Hopkins
Peter Guralnick
Ernst Jorgensen
Roger Semon
RCA publications
and other authors in print or internet

are all wrong

to infer that all copied one another is insulting to all of them


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Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by ekenee »

It's not nonsense, because I don't think they did. When referring to one, they were referring to both.

There is no pattern.

You really believe LOC -1035 foldout cover made the charts in 1967? You are reaching.



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Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by drjohncarpenter »

KiwiAlan wrote:All this dating is coming from one source.- Billboard.
Yes, the #1 music industry magazine, especially in the era we are researching.

Please, if you have another credible publication you can locate, scan and display here, do share!


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Luuk

Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by Luuk »

Anybody have the monthly Schwann Catalogue from October/November/December 1958, 1959 and 1960 to find out when LPM-1951 was released?




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Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by ekenee »

drjohncarpenter wrote:
ekenee wrote:It also tells me that Billboard made no distinction between the original and the reissue.
Billboard made GREAT distinction between the two, one of the core points of my previous post.

Then you don't even know what you are posting. because that came from your post.




Juan Luis

Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by Juan Luis »

A mint (without splits on the spine etc) copy of LOC-1035 is very hard to come by and fetches quite a bit of money when it does. If in fact it was available through 1967 it shouldn't and wouldn't be so hard to find plenty of excellent (condition) copies. My take on that. Overproduction in 57'?



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Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by drjohncarpenter »

Juan Luis wrote:A mint (without splits on the spine etc) copy of LOC-1035 is very hard to come by and fetches quite a bit of money when it does. If in fact it was available through 1967 it shouldn't and wouldn't be so hard to find plenty of excellent (condition) copies. My take on that. Overproduction in 57'?
My feeling is the 1967 entry is incorrect, but that LOC 1035 remained a retail item through Christmas 1963.

Again, another neat wrinkle in the Christmas album history.


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Juan Luis

Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by Juan Luis »

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Juan Luis wrote:A mint (without splits on the spine etc) copy of LOC-1035 is very hard to come by and fetches quite a bit of money when it does. If in fact it was available through 1967 it shouldn't and wouldn't be so hard to find plenty of excellent (condition) copies. My take on that. Overproduction in 57'?
My feeling is the 1967 entry is incorrect, but that LOC 1035 remained a retail item through Christmas 1963.

Again, another neat wrinkle in the Christmas album history.
Thanks for info Doc.



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Re: Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

Post by drjohncarpenter »

Juan Luis wrote: Thanks for info Doc.
You're welcome!

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