I agree that both musicians sound incredibly comfortable with this song.
Note: I also just updated the original post with a bit more information!
drjohncarpenter wrote:
elvisalisellers wrote:Another point to ponder, was Moore playing from memory whilst playing acoustic lead on the Tiger Man jam of June 25, 1968 [heard unedited on the Burbank '68 FTD]?
Whilst a little hesitant in places, it nonetheless still sounds very well structured for an off the cuff rendition.
Indeed, it does sound cohesive. Call it another piece of the puzzle.
Last edited by drjohncarpenter on Fri May 03, 2013 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
. Dr. John Carpenter, M.D. Stop, look and listen, baby <<--->> that's my philosophy!
There is still no proof at all that presley ever cut Tiger Man at Sun. Yes, he said he did during a week of performances, but no writer or researcher has yet found any evidence that such a recording ever existed. Elvis also told audiences in 1977 that he cut Trying To get To You 18 years earlier, that wasn't true either. He also told them in 1974 that he had never been strung out on anything except music... Yeah, let's believe Elvis's story on all three counts.
Further evidence of Elvis' phenomenal memory, especially for the early days, is found in the D.J Fontana interview excerpt below.
Just like June Juanico's similar vignette, cited earlier in the topic, D.J. was shocked at what our hero remembered.
When was the last time you saw Elvis?
Well, I think it was early on in the seventies, a few years after the baby, Lisa Marie, was born. Me and my wife would go down and see him every now and again. We'd sit around and talk. All he ever wanted to do was talk about the fifties -- the early days. Man, he had an ungodly memory. He remembered everything we ever did. He'd talk about old gigs, places we'd been -- stuff I'd forgotten but he remembered.
840907_The Big Beat_Weinberg.jpg
Max Weinberg with Robert Santelli, The Big Beat: Conversations with Rock's Great Drummers (Chicago: Contemporary Books, Inc., September 7, 1984)
The evidence of Elvis' words at all of those August 1970 show, spoken seriously, is very worthy indeed.
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. Dr. John Carpenter, M.D. Stop, look and listen, baby <<--->> that's my philosophy!
drjohncarpenter wrote:Further evidence of Elvis' phenomenal memory, especially for the early days, is found in the D.J Fontana interview excerpt below.
Just like June Juanico's similar vignette, cited earlier in the topic, D.J. was shocked at what our hero remembered.
When was the last time you saw Elvis?
Well, I think it was early on in the seventies, a few years after the baby, Lisa Marie, was born. Me and my wife would go down and see him every now and again. We'd sit around and talk. All he ever wanted to do was talk about the fifties -- the early days. Man, he had an ungodly memory. He remembered everything we ever did. He'd talk about old gigs, places we'd been -- stuff I'd forgotten but he remembered.
840907_The Big Beat_Weinberg.jpg
Max Weinberg with Robert Santelli, The Big Beat: Conversations with Rock's Great Drummers (Chicago: Contemporary Books, Inc., September 7, 1984)
The evidence of Elvis' words at all of those August 1970 show, spoken seriously, is very worthy indeed.
I believe Red West said that Elvis had a memory like an elephant. Great idea btw Doc as far as this part of the forum goes.
Technical note: there are now two different versions of this important thread.
My additions, today, to the original version, are on the other one.
I'm sure there can be a merger, so that doesn't happen in the future. (I will check "the Clinic" before posting in the future.)
No one likes to see a good theory get lost in the sands of time.
rjm
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2
"And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God." Aeschylus
"Treat me mean and cruel, treat me like a fool, but love me!"
On the so called "Opening Night" tape from 1969 he introduces it as "one of the first records I ever made"..I think he made a demo very early..in the kind of My Happiness..
Thanks to Ernst Joergensen, Roger Semon and Erik Rasmussen for the great work. Keep the spirit alive !
Ciscoking wrote:On the so called "Opening Night" tape from 1969 he introduces it as "one of the first records I ever made"..I think he made a demo very early..in the kind of My Happiness..
rjm
Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4
"And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God." Aeschylus
"Treat me mean and cruel, treat me like a fool, but love me!"
Ciscoking wrote:On the so called "Opening Night" tape from 1969 he introduces it as "one of the first records I ever made"..I think he made a demo very early..in the kind of My Happiness..
It is very clear something went on with Elvis, Scotty and Bill in 1954 and a song called "Tiger Man."
This is my personal Golden Fleece now.
. Dr. John Carpenter, M.D. Stop, look and listen, baby <<--->> that's my philosophy!
Are we even sure that when Elvis said it was supposed to be his second record, he meant his second Sun single? Could he have been referring to his second RCA single. I know it sounds a bit far-fetched, but is it possible that Elvis attempted "Tiger Man" in early 1956 after the release of "Heartbreak Hotel"? I always thought it was odd that Elvis flew in for the "I Want You, I Need You, I Love You" session and only did one song. Could they have made an attempt on "Tiger Man" either in Nashville or, for that matter, in New York that was deemed unacceptable.
Another point along the same logic...are we so sure that when Elvis said "Tiger Man" was supposed to be his second record, that Elvis wasn't referring to the flipside of "That's All Right." Most history books place the recording of "That's All Right" on July 5, 1954 with "Blue Moon Of Kentucky" being recorded a few days later, likel y on July 7. Is it possible that "Tiger Man" was attempted by Elvis in between the recording of "That's All Right" and the recording of "Blue Moon Of Kentucky"? Most people who have suggested a Sun recording of "Tiger Man" by Elvis place it sometime between the release of Sun 209 "That's All Right" / "Blue Moon Of Kentucky" and the release of Sun 210 "Good Rockin' Tonight" / "I Don't Care If The Sun Don't Shine." Could Elvis have been referring to the second side / flip-side of "That's All Right" when he made his comments on stage in August, 1970?
Daryl wrote:Are we even sure that when Elvis said it was supposed to be his second record, he meant his second Sun single? Could he have been referring to his second RCA single. I know it sounds a bit far-fetched, but is it possible that Elvis attempted "Tiger Man" in early 1956 after the release of "Heartbreak Hotel"? I always thought it was odd that Elvis flew in for the "I Want You, I Need You, I Love You" session and only did one song. Could they have made an attempt on "Tiger Man" either in Nashville or, for that matter, in New York that was deemed unacceptable.
Another point along the same logic...are we so sure that when Elvis said "Tiger Man" was supposed to be his second record, that Elvis wasn't referring to the flipside of "That's All Right." Most history books place the recording of "That's All Right" on July 5, 1954 with "Blue Moon Of Kentucky" being recorded a few days later, likel y on July 7. Is it possible that "Tiger Man" was attempted by Elvis in between the recording of "That's All Right" and the recording of "Blue Moon Of Kentucky"? Most people who have suggested a Sun recording of "Tiger Man" by Elvis place it sometime between the release of Sun 209 "That's All Right" / "Blue Moon Of Kentucky" and the release of Sun 210 "Good Rockin' Tonight" / "I Don't Care If The Sun Don't Shine." Could Elvis have been referring to the second side / flip-side of "That's All Right" when he made his comments on stage in August, 1970?
Daryl
. Dr. John Carpenter, M.D. Stop, look and listen, baby <<--->> that's my philosophy!
drjohncarpenter wrote:Daryl, please start on page 1 and get reading...
Daryl wrote:Are we even sure that when Elvis said it was supposed to be his second record, he meant his second Sun single? Could he have been referring to his second RCA single. I know it sounds a bit far-fetched, but is it possible that Elvis attempted "Tiger Man" in early 1956 after the release of "Heartbreak Hotel"? I always thought it was odd that Elvis flew in for the "I Want You, I Need You, I Love You" session and only did one song. Could they have made an attempt on "Tiger Man" either in Nashville or, for that matter, in New York that was deemed unacceptable.
Another point along the same logic...are we so sure that when Elvis said "Tiger Man" was supposed to be his second record, that Elvis wasn't referring to the flipside of "That's All Right." Most history books place the recording of "That's All Right" on July 5, 1954 with "Blue Moon Of Kentucky" being recorded a few days later, likel y on July 7. Is it possible that "Tiger Man" was attempted by Elvis in between the recording of "That's All Right" and the recording of "Blue Moon Of Kentucky"? Most people who have suggested a Sun recording of "Tiger Man" by Elvis place it sometime between the release of Sun 209 "That's All Right" / "Blue Moon Of Kentucky" and the release of Sun 210 "Good Rockin' Tonight" / "I Don't Care If The Sun Don't Shine." Could Elvis have been referring to the second side / flip-side of "That's All Right" when he made his comments on stage in August, 1970?
Daryl
Again Doc, you and others are assuming that what Elvis meant was that after "That's All Right" / "Blue Moon Of Kentucky" (Sun 209) was released, Elvis attempted "Tiger Man" as the followup single to Sun 209.
Elvis never mentioned Sun Records, Sam Phillips, "That's All Right," "Blue Moon Of Kentucky," "Good Rockin' Tonight" or the like in any of the August, 1970 comments. Yes, I agree that the first conclusion I would draw based on Elvis' comments is that he's referring to the follow-up single to "That's All Right" / "Blue Moon Of Kentucky." But that doesn't necessarily mean that it is the correct conclusion.
Elvis very much could have been referring to the flip-side to "That's All Right" before "Blue Moon Of Kentucky" was recorded or he could have meant his second RCA single after "Heartbreak Hotel."
Daryl wrote:Again Doc, you and others are assuming that what Elvis meant was that after "That's All Right" / "Blue Moon Of Kentucky" (Sun 209) was released, Elvis attempted "Tiger Man" as the followup single to Sun 209.
Elvis never mentioned Sun Records, Sam Phillips, "That's All Right," "Blue Moon Of Kentucky," "Good Rockin' Tonight" or the like in any of the August, 1970 comments. Yes, I agree that the first conclusion I would draw based on Elvis' comments is that he's referring to the follow-up single to "That's All Right" / "Blue Moon Of Kentucky." But that doesn't necessarily mean that it is the correct conclusion.
Elvis very much could have been referring to the flip-side to "That's All Right" before "Blue Moon Of Kentucky" was recorded or he could have meant his second RCA single after "Heartbreak Hotel."
Nah.
Give the entire topic a serious read, and call me in the morning.
. Dr. John Carpenter, M.D. Stop, look and listen, baby <<--->> that's my philosophy!
Daryl wrote:Again Doc, you and others are assuming that what Elvis meant was that after "That's All Right" / "Blue Moon Of Kentucky" (Sun 209) was released, Elvis attempted "Tiger Man" as the followup single to Sun 209.
Elvis never mentioned Sun Records, Sam Phillips, "That's All Right," "Blue Moon Of Kentucky," "Good Rockin' Tonight" or the like in any of the August, 1970 comments. Yes, I agree that the first conclusion I would draw based on Elvis' comments is that he's referring to the follow-up single to "That's All Right" / "Blue Moon Of Kentucky." But that doesn't necessarily mean that it is the correct conclusion.
Elvis very much could have been referring to the flip-side to "That's All Right" before "Blue Moon Of Kentucky" was recorded or he could have meant his second RCA single after "Heartbreak Hotel."
Nah.
Give the entire topic a serious read, and call me in the morning.
I doubt we ought to stretch the arrow of time in the wrong direction. And I think 1956 is not the right direction.
Elvis alludes to not too many people getting to hear it, in a way that sets it early in time. Perhaps very early.
I mean, if Elvis burped in 1956, people got to hear it.
But he does not mention other people on it.
For whatever reason, in the dressing room sessions, he doesn't say anything. The only hint that Scotty was on it, would be his comfort with the song.
I think it would indeed be wise to listen to the audio again, very carefully.
A question of interest might be to ask is if the "My Baby's Gone" scenario was an isolated incident. Or did it survive when others did not? One of the others being the Doc's fleece?
I don't know. But I feel he did the song, and early. I just think maybe it happened WAY early, based on the audio where he speaks of the "normal" manner in which the song had existed. Thomas' recording was not first. It was a reinterpretation of Joe Hill Louis. So, to me, Thomas' version was not "normal."
This is significant because Louis' version did not appear on record until several years after Elvis was in the ground. It seems to me that Elvis heard it. Just my gut.
I'm not so anxious to actually *hear* an Elvis version as to place it. It would tell us volumes about how he really got rolling. I think.
In any event, thank you John, for chasing your fleece!
rjm
Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4
"And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God." Aeschylus
"Treat me mean and cruel, treat me like a fool, but love me!"
rjm wrote:I doubt we ought to stretch the arrow of time in the wrong direction. And I think 1956 is not the right direction.
Elvis alludes to not too many people getting to hear it, in a way that sets it early in time. Perhaps very early.
I mean, if Elvis burped in 1956, people got to hear it.
But he does not mention other people on it.
For whatever reason, in the dressing room sessions, he doesn't say anything. The only hint that Scotty was on it, would be his comfort with the song.
I think it would indeed be wise to listen to the audio again, very carefully.
A question of interest might be to ask is if the "My Baby's Gone" scenario was an isolated incident. Or did it survive when others did not? One of the others being the Doc's fleece?
I don't know. But I feel he did the song, and early. I just think maybe it happened WAY early, based on the audio where he speaks of the "normal" manner in which the song had existed. Thomas' recording was not first. It was a reinterpretation of Joe Hill Louis. So, to me, Thomas' version was not "normal."
This is significant because Louis' version did not appear on record until several years after Elvis was in the ground. It seems to me that Elvis heard it. Just my gut.
I'm not so anxious to actually *hear* an Elvis version as to place it. It would tell us volumes about how he really got rolling. I think.
In any event, thank you John, for chasing your fleece!
Thanks for coming along on the mystery train!
I must disagree about the Joe Hill Louis supposition. Because the 1968 tapes we have of Elvis and Scotty doing "Tiger Man" decidedly follow the Sun single released in 1953 by Rufus Thomas, there's no doubt that this is his inspiration.
You're welcome. I want to ride the train until it reaches its destination. Which is kind complicated, since it's a mystery train.
The journey is so worth it!
As for Louis, who can know? He was unusual in a number of ways; but he performed in the park. Outdoors.
Well, perhaps one day, certain mysteries will clear up. Can't hurt to ride the train!
rjm
"And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God." Aeschylus
"Treat me mean and cruel, treat me like a fool, but love me!"
rjm wrote:I doubt we ought to stretch the arrow of time in the wrong direction. And I think 1956 is not the right direction.
Elvis alludes to not too many people getting to hear it, in a way that sets it early in time. Perhaps very early.
I think this is an interesting perspective, rjm. It could very well be that another acetate from 1953-54 existed at some time.
Although only two personal acetates have surfaced to date, with a rumor of a third one ("Casual Love"), it is entirely possible that Elvis spent more of his hard earned money on another recording.
However, given that all four sides on the two widely known acetates were ballads, it seems unlikely that Elvis would have cut loose on a song like "Tiger Man" on a personal recording.
However, if Elvis was trying desperately to be noticed as a singer, perhaps he did just that.
rjm wrote:I doubt we ought to stretch the arrow of time in the wrong direction. And I think 1956 is not the right direction.
Elvis alludes to not too many people getting to hear it, in a way that sets it early in time. Perhaps very early.
I think this is an interesting perspective, rjm. It could very well be that another acetate from 1953-54 existed at some time.
Although only two personal acetates have surfaced to date, with a rumor of a third one ("Casual Love"), it is entirely possible that Elvis spent more of his hard earned money on another recording.
However, given that all four sides on the two widely known acetates were ballads, it seems unlikely that Elvis would have cut loose on a song like "Tiger Man" on a personal recording.
However, if Elvis was trying desperately to be noticed as a singer, perhaps he did just that.
Again, the key here is how Elvis addresses the song in those August concerts. It is not presented as a private recording he made. Instead, Presley offers it up as something cut at the beginning of his career proper, that did get some brief airplay.
"The second record that I ever recorded, when I first started out in the business, was called 'Tiger Man.' And, uh (applause), you heard of it? Not too many people did." Friday, August 21, 1970 MS http://jordans-elvis-world.com/audio/lostlovin/3.ram
His implication was that "Tiger Man" was going to be a follow-up to his Sun single debut in July 1954, but plans changed.
. Dr. John Carpenter, M.D. Stop, look and listen, baby <<--->> that's my philosophy!
drjohncarpenter wrote:
Again, the key here is how Elvis addresses the song in those August concerts. It is not presented as a private recording he made. Instead, Presley offers it up as something cut at the beginning of his career proper, that did get some brief airplay.
"The second record that I ever recorded, when I first started out in the business, was called 'Tiger Man.' And, uh (applause), you heard of it? Not too many people did." Friday, August 21, 1970 MS http://jordans-elvis-world.com/audio/lostlovin/3.ram
His implication was that "Tiger Man" was going to be a follow-up to his Sun single debut in July 1954, but plans changed.
So that would imply that if a Sun recording of "Tiger Man" by Elvis survives, that it may be an acetate test pressing that Sam Phillips used to test the song with local DJs, just as he would later do with "My Baby's Gone". That seems entirely possible to me.
Perhaps, drjohncarpenter, all of us who love the Sun era will one day have a chance to hear a treasure like this.
