Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

[mike edwards66]

In 1970 he got it wrong. In 1971 he was aware of the error and fact is that Mystery Train belonged indeed to his first recordings.

And yet, lest we forget that in 1972 Elvis was back with two more, matter of fact references, to Tiger Man as his second record. After singing Tiger Man (at around the 55:05 mark) he says "thank you very much, that was my second record, that I ever recorded........" And again (around the 1:54:55 mark) "that was my second record...."


..

I didn't realise that.

Until I posted it, no one did! Zero effort and research strikes again.

I'd be more inclined to believe what Elvis said in 1972. Those August/September 1972 shows were much less light-hearted and Elvis was in a very serious mood for most of them. In August 1970 Elvis was joking around almost the whole time........

Whether it's the Beatles, Steve Allen or "Tiger Man", my starting point is always to ask "what did Elvis say on the subject?". With that as a starting point, and a healthy smattering of discernment, one can easily navigate between the sometimes humorous, and the more serious comments.

[DEH]

From what I am aware, even Scotty Moore doesn't remember recording it either.

There are many cases in 1971 where Elvis clearly mentions Mystery Train being his second record...be it in Feb or Aug.
Here is my latest find from Aug 16, 1971 MS where he is clearly referring to Mystery Train. In 1970 he got it wrong. In 1971 he was aware of the error and fact is that Mystery Train belonged indeed to his first recordings. So this makes sense.

Mystery Train (beginning only)

Amen Brother.

[drjohncarpenter]

There are many cases in 1971 where Elvis clearly mentions Mystery Train being his second record...be it in Feb or Aug.
Here is my latest find from Aug 16, 1971 MS where he is clearly referring to Mystery Train. In 1970 he got it wrong. In 1971 he was aware of the error and fact is that Mystery Train belonged indeed to his first recordings. So this makes sense.

Mystery Train (beginning only)

Amen Brother.

22 pages in, this "theory" was already clearly and convincingly shot down. Read the discussion next time, and quit trolling topics.

Thanks.

[DEH]

It was not shot down at all. He did the same thing at several concerts on record. U dispute what he says in concerts when it suits u. During the 68 special he mentions That's Aright Mama was his first record. When he sings Tiger Man he says nothing. He could easily have said. My second record. He does not. More evidence supports the theory he was mistaken. I am not trolling. I saw ciscos' comment there for the first time and backed him up.

[drjohncarpenter]

It was not shot down at all.

As usual, you are wrong. You have 21 pages to read if you want to learn how this was clearly dismissed as incorrect.

Otherwise, quit trolling my topic, or I'll ask the admins to deal with you.

Thanks.

[rjm]

I still am wondering what he really meant by "record." He qualified it by saying "that I ever recorded." By that standard, his actual second record that he recorded was "I'll Never Stand In Your Way." And he got one of his demos on the jukebox in Charlie's. Not too many people got to hear it.

Is it possible, however improbable, that he made another demo? And put it on a jukebox? And not too many people got to hear it? And what if that demo was "Tiger Man"?

I know: why didn't Leek get his hands on it, if it existed? I can't answer that but perhaps it simply was destroyed.

I believe Elvis but I think there may be more to this story. As for me, I just want to know if it ever existed, even if it was destroyed. There is so little known about his musical efforts in 1953 and early 1954.

Just something to ponder . . .

rjm

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

[drjohncarpenter]

I still am wondering what he really meant by "record." He qualified it by saying "that I ever recorded." By that standard, his actual second record that he recorded was "I'll Never Stand In Your Way." And he got one of his demos on the jukebox in Charlie's. Not too many people got to hear it.

Is it possible, however improbable, that he made another demo? And put it on a jukebox? And not too many people got to hear it? And what if that demo was "Tiger Man"?

I know: why didn't Leek get his hands on it, if it existed? I can't answer that but perhaps it simply was destroyed.

I believe Elvis but I think there may be more to this story. As for me, I just want to know if it ever existed, even if it was destroyed. There is so little known about his musical efforts in 1953 and early 1954.

Just something to ponder . . .

rjm

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

Given the context for the statements, on stage in the summer of 1970, Elvis is almost certainly using "record" to describe a retail product, not a demo. He's talking about something people could go out and acquire. In other words, his "second record release." I'm pretty sure this was discussed in the previous pages.

[rjm]

I still am wondering what he really meant by "record." He qualified it by saying "that I ever recorded." By that standard, his actual second record that he recorded was "I'll Never Stand In Your Way." And he got one of his demos on the jukebox in Charlie's. Not too many people got to hear it.

Is it possible, however improbable, that he made another demo? And put it on a jukebox? And not too many people got to hear it? And what if that demo was "Tiger Man"?

I know: why didn't Leek get his hands on it, if it existed? I can't answer that but perhaps it simply was destroyed.

I believe Elvis but I think there may be more to this story. As for me, I just want to know if it ever existed, even if it was destroyed. There is so little known about his musical efforts in 1953 and early 1954.

Just something to ponder . . .

rjm

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

Given the context for the statements, on stage in the summer of 1970, Elvis is almost certainly using "record" to describe a retail product, not a demo. He's talking about something people could go out and acquire. In other words, his "second record release." I'm pretty sure this was discussed in the previous pages.

I think it was. But this is my brainstorming, and until we know exactly to what he was referring, exactly what he meant, I'm sticking to it. For now. I wish Dixie Locke would publish her diary (with her own personal stuff excised, of course.)

My problem with a commercial release is that there is no documentation for that. Even "My Baby's Gone" has documentation. And that is why I am thinking "demo."

I am probably wrong. But I am possibly right.

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

We have not yet reached that point at this time, so you may be correct. And I may be wrong.

But believing Elvis on this? I think you have made a fairly watertight case for that. He started talking about "Tiger Man" in 1968. And now we are hearing him in 1972. I think that seals it. I believe he recorded it and that it was in physical form for people to hear.

For me, it's just a matter of the timing. Because I just can't see a commercial release not leaving a paper trail. I can see that with a demo that was destroyed.

That makes the puzzle pieces fit.

Just a third angle to consider. Most people want to HEAR it; I just want to know the circumstances.

rjm

"Treat me mean and cruel, treat me like a fool, but love me!"

[drjohncarpenter]

My problem with a commercial release is that there is no documentation for that. Even "My Baby's Gone" has documentation.

The supposition here is that a recording of "Tiger Man" may have been designated his "second record." This does not mean labels were printed and advertising prepared for a commercial release. But does imply that acetates were sent out to DJs for gauging audience reaction, as was done for "That's All Right," his first record. This brief radio airplay would fit Elvis' additional claim that "not a lot of people heard it."

What specific documentation is there for "My Baby Is Gone"? My understanding is no one knew a thing about this alternate performance until a Sun acetate was found by a collector in 1970.

[mike edwards66]

He started talking about "Tiger Man" in 1968. And now we are hearing him in 1972. I think that seals it.

Hey Robin, glad you're back! And glad the 1972 recording seals the deal! I try.

I still am wondering what he really meant by "record." He qualified it by saying "that I ever recorded." By that standard, his actual second record that he recorded was "I'll Never Stand In Your Way."

OK. Outside the box notion. When Elvis said "that was my second record, that I ever recorded" he was speaking literally. After recording "My Happiness" at Sun with Marion Keisker at the helm, and whilst waiting hopefully for Sam Phillips to contact him, Elvis made a second record at another recording service.

Hence no paperwork at Sun, and hence Elvis' cryptic reference "not too many people heard it because I wasn't too well known".

In August 1970, one of the few people that had "heard it" showed up, hung around for a while and sparked Elvis' memory.

[drjohncarpenter]

OK. Outside the box notion. When Elvis said "that was my second record, that I ever recorded" he was speaking literally. After recording "My Happiness" at Sun with Marion Keisker at the helm, and whilst waiting hopefully for Sam Phillips to contact him, Elvis made a second record at another recording service.

Not even close. Nice effort, though. Four sentences!

[mike edwards66]

OK. Outside the box notion. When Elvis said "that was my second record, that I ever recorded" he was speaking literally. After recording "My Happiness" at Sun with Marion Keisker at the helm, and whilst waiting hopefully for Sam Phillips to contact him, Elvis made a second record at another recording service.

Not even close. Nice effort, though. Four sentences!

Glad you like it!

Look, you are obviously going to be protective of your original theory. I appreciate that. Just open your mind a little, play around with what I wrote, and let it settle.

Your fine original theory would still be mostly intact. And all the pieces fit.

[drjohncarpenter]

OK. Outside the box notion. When Elvis said "that was my second record, that I ever recorded" he was speaking literally. After recording "My Happiness" at Sun with Marion Keisker at the helm, and whilst waiting hopefully for Sam Phillips to contact him, Elvis made a second record at another recording service.

Not even close. Nice effort, though. Four sentences!

Glad you like it!

Yeah, too bad it doesn't work.

[mike edwards66]

OK. Outside the box notion. When Elvis said "that was my second record, that I ever recorded" he was speaking literally. After recording "My Happiness" at Sun with Marion Keisker at the helm, and whilst waiting hopefully for Sam Phillips to contact him, Elvis made a second record at another recording service.

Not even close. Nice effort, though. Four sentences!

Glad you like it!

Yeah, too bad it doesn't work.

Yeah? Why is that, exactly. Please elaborate.

[rjm]

My problem with a commercial release is that there is no documentation for that. Even "My Baby's Gone" has documentation.

The supposition here is that a recording of "Tiger Man" may have been designated his "second record." This does not mean labels were printed and advertising prepared for a commercial release. But does imply that acetates were sent out to DJs for gauging audience reaction, as was done for "That's All Right," his first record. This brief radio airplay would fit Elvis' additional claim that "not a lot of people heard it."

What specific documentation is there for "My Baby Is Gone"? My understanding is no one knew a thing about this alternate performance until a Sun acetate was found by a collector in 1970.

It's on the acetate itself: "blues Cold." (I wish I had the photo handy.) Sam wrote that for the DJs to let them know about genre, and whatever he meant by "cold." My theory can definitely include Sun. But before January, 1954, so that it was his second record that he ever recorded. I think it was recorded. But before July 5, 1954, and I believe that Sam destroyed it for whatever reason, or it just got lost.

And there's that phantom receipt for a third demo in the summer of 1954. (This doesn't jibe with "second," though.)

It's a riddle wrapped in an enigma (and I can't recall the exact wording of that famous line).

All of these are possible explanations. Because not too many people got to hear it. Not many at all.

As for a different location, Billy Emerson once told Escott/Hawkins that they both made some extra cash by slipping into the back of WDIA where Phineas Newborn was surreptitiously making demos with hired singers. If Billy is telling the truth, and he places this in 1954, early - then that's a very compelling explanation for the lack of any documentation. But one person's account (Emerson's) is insufficient on this point. Except that Elvis hung out with the Newborn family.

I believe that Elvis is telling the truth. It's just that we need to ask "where is it?" and "under which circumstances?"

Could he actually be confusing "My Baby's Gone" with another song he loved to sing? I don't think so because I believe he did record Tiger Man. He talked about it before 1970 and talked about it after 1970.

And I agree that if one is going to suggest a different studio or service, one should say "which one?" There was only one other possible place. The studio under construction at WDIA. It's just brainstorming. Just puzzle pieces.

rjm



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[drjohncarpenter]

The supposition here is that a recording of "Tiger Man" may have been designated his "second record." This does not mean labels were printed and advertising prepared for a commercial release. But does imply that acetates were sent out to DJs for gauging audience reaction, as was done for "That's All Right," his first record. This brief radio airplay would fit Elvis' additional claim that "not a lot of people heard it."

What specific documentation is there for "My Baby Is Gone"? My understanding is no one knew a thing about this alternate performance until a Sun acetate was found by a collector in 1970.

It's on the acetate itself: "blues Cold." (I wish I had the photo handy.) Sam wrote that for the DJs to let them know about genre, and whatever he meant by "cold." My theory can definitely include Sun. But before January, 1954, so that it was his second record that he ever recorded. I think it was recorded. But before July 5, 1954, and I believe that Sam destroyed it for whatever reason, or it just got lost.

Not quite sure what you are driving at here. A note like "blues COLD" is a standard radio term telling the DJ that the song is a blues, and it ends abruptly. There is no fade out, or musical sustain. Boom: it's done. The existence of "My Baby's Gone" is proof of Sam Phillips' working methods as far as deciding which song would be released on a Sun single. It was a step in the process, if necessary, to decide upon the best arrangement.

As for a different location, Billy Emerson once told Escott/Hawkins that they both made some extra cash by slipping into the back of WDIA where Phineas Newborn was surreptitiously making demos with hired singers. If Billy is telling the truth, and he places this in 1954, early - then that's a very compelling explanation for the lack of any documentation. But one person's account (Emerson's) is insufficient on this point. Except that Elvis hung out with the Newborn family.

...

And I agree that if one is going to suggest a different studio or service, one should say "which one?" There was only one other possible place. The studio under construction at WDIA. It's just brainstorming. Just puzzle pieces.

I've not read of Elvis "hanging out" with Phineas Newborn. In this period, Elvis and Dixie Locke did go see Newborn's younger brother, Calvin, perform, but that's the only connection of which I am aware.




Calvin Newborn, circa 1954


The flaw in a suggestion of a demo recording at WDIA Radio is that it would have also involved Scotty Moore and Bill Black. Presley and his band were under Sam Phillips' control as of 7-05-1954. And there is nothing from either of them about such an event at WDIA, including That's All Right, Elvis, Moore's "as-told-to" biography.

WDIA was almost all-black in terms of music and employees. Surely that would be an indelible memory for all involved. No one there has ever said a thing about such a visit. Also, had the trio done such a session, Phillips would have inevitably learned of it, and the insubordinate nature of the act, right in town, would have angered him beyond belief. There would have been no reason to go anywhere else, plenty of experimentation was available to them at 706 Union any time they were in town.

[mike edwards66]

OK. Outside the box notion. When Elvis said "that was my second record, that I ever recorded" he was speaking literally. After recording "My Happiness" at Sun with Marion Keisker at the helm, and whilst waiting hopefully for Sam Phillips to contact him, Elvis made a second record at another recording service.

Not even close. Nice effort, though. Four sentences!

Glad you like it!

Yeah, too bad it doesn't work.

Yeah? Why is that, exactly. Please elaborate.

We are not going to solve many mysteries by ignoring, politely put questions. Are we?

[rjm]

OK. Outside the box notion. When Elvis said "that was my second record, that I ever recorded" he was speaking literally. After recording "My Happiness" at Sun with Marion Keisker at the helm, and whilst waiting hopefully for Sam Phillips to contact him, Elvis made a second record at another recording service.

Not even close. Nice effort, though. Four sentences!

Glad you like it!

Yeah, too bad it doesn't work.

Yeah? Why is that, exactly. Please elaborate.

We are not going to solve many mysteries by ignoring, politely put questions. Are we?

I believe that is a question of motive that he's asking, Mike. Are you REALLY interested in solving a mystery, or are you trolling someone for kicks? That's kind of the question that the OP wishes to know, I think. As for me, I am interested in this topic because I really, really care about solving this. And others just want to kick up some dust for fun, perhaps. Perhaps.

I think that when Elvis began talking about "Tiger Man," firstly to the writers on the '68 special on June-5/6 1968, and continued again in 1970, and later in 1972, he left us a "rosebud."

As for me, I can't resist a "rosebud"!

1. Now, to Sam. We know he DID send an acetate to radio, which didn't make it. Did this happen before? That is one possibility, for certain. And that would most certainly be his second record, which not many people got to hear. This is the most likely scenario. If so, if it happened before, the Doc is correct. It had to be "Tiger Man." And maybe taken at a slower pace. (Joe Hill Louis performed in the park.)

2. As for Elvis Presley's connection to the Newborn family, Stanley Booth chronicled it in a 1989 Village Voice article. Elvis did get around. But for now, there is only speculation as to what Emerson asserted. It's just not solid enough.

3. The third demo receipt? Is it legit? If so, what songs were on it? Even though it represented a third demo, it could be the one. Possibly.

rjm


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[drjohncarpenter]

1. Now, to Sam. We know he DID send an acetate to radio, which didn't make it. Did this happen before? That is one possibility, for certain. And that would most certainly be his second record, which not many people got to hear. This is the most likely scenario. If so, if it happened before, the Doc is correct. It had to be "Tiger Man." And maybe taken at a slower pace. (Joe Hill Louis performed in the park.)

2. As for Elvis Presley's connection to the Newborn family, Stanley Booth chronicled it in a 1989 Village Voice article. Elvis did get around. But for now, there is only speculation as to what Emerson asserted. It's just not solid enough.

3. The third demo receipt? Is it legit? If so, what songs were on it? Even though it represented a third demo, it could be the one. Possibly.

rjm

Sam Phillips likely sent acetates to radio for "That's All Right," "Blue Moon of Kentucky" (maybe) and "I'm Left, You're Right, My Baby's Gone." I'll try to find the Stanley Booth piece, but the fact that it got no mention anywhere else implies his suggestion was fanciful. The veracity of a Memphis Recording Service receipt for a third demo from June 1954 is not entirely confirmed. It's a reach to imagine Elvis would call such a thing his "second record," when he was a month away from crafted his first record.

[mike edwards66]

We are not going to solve many mysteries by ignoring, politely put questions. Are we?

I believe that is a question of motive, Mike. Are you REALLY interested in solving a mystery, or are you trolling someone for kicks? That is the question.

Wow, Robin. You seem to have checked your impartiality at the door. Anyhow, check out my contributions across this subject, and you will have your answer.

http://www.elvis-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=88579

[mike edwards66]

I think that when Elvis began talking about "Tiger Man," firstly to the writers on the '68 special on June-5/6 1968, and continued again in 1970, and later in 1972, he left us a "rosebud."

I agree, Robin. If, for a moment, we put ourselves in the place of the young Elvis Presley. We have just made our first ever record, "My Happiness". The thrill that must have been. Would we not be itching to make a second. How long could we wait, a week, a month, a couple of months?


It's not too much of a stretch to consider that whilst he was waiting hopefully, for Sam Phillips to contact him, Elvis could have made another record, at another recording service. That when Elvis said "that was my second record, that I ever recorded" he was speaking literally. And notice how he qualified, not just my "second record" but "that I ever recorded". The devil could be in the detail!


Hence no paperwork at Sun, and hence Elvis' cryptic reference "not too many people heard it because I wasn't too well known".


Then in August 1970, one of the few people that had "heard it" showed up, hung around for a while and sparked Elvis' memory.

[rjm]

We are not going to solve many mysteries by ignoring, politely put questions. Are we?

I believe that is a question of motive, Mike. Are you REALLY interested in solving a mystery, or are you trolling someone for kicks? That is the question.

Wow, Robin. You seem to have checked your impartiality at the door. Anyhow, check out my contributions across this subject, and you will have your answer.

http://www.elvis-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=88579

It was just a question. I was curious if you were just having a bit of fun playing The Dozens Because I know you like to ruffle feathers. It's an Internet thing. But if you're serious, always elaborate.

And thank you for the warm welcome back! And I mean that. All the best!

rjm

[rjm]

Today, after reading over my latest posts, I also want to apologize to both Mike and the Doc, myself. I wanted to make sure you guys (that includes *everyone*) will treat me normally and not like a porcelain doll. That has been a major concern of mine.

So I hopped into the very thread where I first posted almost 5 years to the day and almost 11,000 posts later. And I acted a bit surly to you both, for which I profoundly apologize.

I AM very curious as to Elvis's movements right up until July 5, 1954. But at this moment, looking back at my recent posts on this thread, I realized that I was (probably unconsciously) testing the limits.

I realize that there are EXTREMELY intelligent people here, and perhaps some of you have worked certain things out in your minds (about my absence and illness). And if you had come to the conclusion that I was emotionally fragile, I wanted to prove to you guys that I can take a punch. Ya dig?

Again, please accept my apologies for something I didn't realize I was doing. I just feel very apprehensive because FECC means so very much to me and I left without my usual courtesy message or anything. That could not be helped due to personal circumstances I will try to explain in due time. That would be better than diving in the deep end of the pool head first.

Right now, I just want you to know that I am ME, and I am strong, and I can hold my own in this, my favorite place in cyberspace.

Thanking you in advance for your understanding. This has been a most trying time in my life and I appreciate everything. To the mods: I promise to think once, twice and three times before stirring any pots! That's out of my system.

Now, back to The King of the Jungle! They called him the Tiger Man!



rjm
P.S. -- Sorry for picking your thread, Doc. And sorry to Mike for the appearance of taking sides. That was inappropriate especially at this time when I am wading back into the water. But it's the same thread that has my very first post and that got me to sign up! January 28, 2011 at 2:38 AM. This thread means a lot to me and I only hope a real answer to the puzzle of "Tiger Man" exists somewhere, somehow. I mean, if you only KNEW how much the existence of this thread changed my life for the better!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

[drjohncarpenter]

No worries, you did not ruffle anyone's feathers and nothing that you wrote came off in a negative fashion.

Keep getting better and thank you for the kind words!

[rjm]

No worries, you did not ruffle anyone's feathers and nothing that you wrote came off in a negative fashion.

Keep getting better and thank you for the kind words!

Thank you so much John.

Best,
Robin

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk