*The Lord's Prayer ~ Duet with Mario Lanza*

[FredAistair]

There are many interesting comments here about voices, limitations, technical ability and so on and so forth. But what is the criteria being used to describe a great voice or a great singer? Which actually may not be mutual anyway?

The presumption I am seeing is that essentially the great voices belong to opera singers. That may be so, but surely only in specify areas. As far as I can see or perhaps I should say hear, Opera singers are actually limited in their production.

I believe efforts by the Great Opera singers to sing blues, blue grass, rock, folk, pop etc would be laughable.

Hank Williams was a great country singer, BB King a great blues singer, Woody Guthrie a great folk singer, Ella Fitzgerald a great jazz singer, Jerry Lee a great rock singer, James Brown a great soul singer. But how many of these had really great voices and could they cross over.
Yet it would be laughable to suggest a great opera singer could best them in these areas or could seriously attempt any of this type of production successfully.

I think Sue Bo and Norah Jones have great voices, but after listening to a couple of their songs I find them boring singers. Perhaps Celine Dion and Mariah Cary have great voices, but they are also irritating singers who murder songs, particularly the latter.

So we are back to the main question what and how does one define a great voice and a great singer?

[rjm]

There are many interesting comments here about voices, limitations, technical ability and so on and so forth. But what is the criteria being used to describe a great voice or a great singer? Which actually may not be mutual anyway?

The presumption I am seeing is that essentially the great voices belong to opera singers. That may be so, but surely only in specify areas. As far as I can see or perhaps I should say hear, Opera singers are actually limited in their production.

I believe efforts by the Great Opera singers to sing blues, blue grass, rock, folk, pop etc would be laughable.

Hank Williams was a great country singer, BB King a great blues singer, Woody Guthrie a great folk singer, Ella Fitzgerald a great jazz singer, Jerry Lee a great rock singer, James Brown a great soul singer. But how many of these had really great voices and could they cross over.
Yet it would be laughable to suggest a great opera singer could best them in these areas or could seriously attempt any of this type of production successfully.

I think Sue Bo and Norah Jones have great voices, but after listening to a couple of their songs I find them boring singers. Perhaps Celine Dion and Mariah Cary have great voices, but they are also irritating singers who murder songs, particularly the latter.

So we are back to the main question what and how does one define a great voice and a great singer?

Well, there is no easy answer to such a question, but there are places to start asking the right questions about it, which is probably the best you can do.

Henry Pleasants has written a couple of important books.

The Great Singers (trained voices here):http://www.amazon.com/The-Great-Singers-Pavarotti-fireside/dp/0671421603/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1337230907&sr=8-2

The Great American Popular Singers (generally untrained voices from a variety of traditions): http://www.amazon.com/The-Great-American-Popular-Singers/dp/0671540998/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337230907&sr=8-1

And an essay that has been very important to me, and to a number of music writers, most notably Simon Frith:
Roland Barthes, "The Grain of The Voice," in Image, Music, Text: http://www.amazon.com/Image-Music-Text-Roland-Barthes/dp/0374521360/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1337231331&sr=1-1
His "The Pleasure of the Text" is also a cool read; helps you understand the deep-down experience of the joy of music, of voices, in the social contexts of your choice. He kind of wants to know what a voice does to the world in which it is heard.

(I just picked amazon, 'cause it's easy; there are a gazillion booksellers, of course . . .)

"Grain" is, of course, translated. He is French. I really cannot come up with the proper translation, but "texture" helps, although that's not quite it. Here are some synonyms that might be helpful: "character, composition, consistency, constitution, fabric, feel, grain, make, quality, structure, surface, tissue, weave." Or maybe not. "Feel" is one that comes the closest, I think, to what he meant by "grain." But it was more than that, because for Barthes, some singers' voices had a "grain," and some did not. And, after much work on the concept, I came to the conclusion that the concept is NOT identical with "soul," with which it is often identified. "Soul" is more of a description, whereas "grain" is literally something palpable. You explain soul, whereas you experience the grain of a voice.

Ever listen to Elvis {or insert vocalist here} with headphones on, and it's loud, and it's something you really love, really feel? So much that you feel like you are inside his voice, and it's SO good to you, to the point where the line between you and that voice blurs in the pleasure of "the grain of the voice."

I gave it my best shot. Hope I didn't give anybody a headache.

rjm

[Steve Morse]

There are many interesting comments here about voices, limitations, technical ability and so on and so forth. But what is the criteria being used to describe a great voice or a great singer? Which actually may not be mutual anyway?

The presumption I am seeing is that essentially the great voices belong to opera singers. That may be so, but surely only in specify areas. As far as I can see or perhaps I should say hear, Opera singers are actually limited in their production.

I believe efforts by the Great Opera singers to sing blues, blue grass, rock, folk, pop etc would be laughable.

Hank Williams was a great country singer, BB King a great blues singer, Woody Guthrie a great folk singer, Ella Fitzgerald a great jazz singer, Jerry Lee a great rock singer, James Brown a great soul singer. But how many of these had really great voices and could they cross over.
Yet it would be laughable to suggest a great opera singer could best them in these areas or could seriously attempt any of this type of production successfully.

I think Sue Bo and Norah Jones have great voices, but after listening to a couple of their songs I find them boring singers. Perhaps Celine Dion and Mariah Cary have great voices, but they are also irritating singers who murder songs, particularly the latter.

So we are back to the main question what and how does one define a great voice and a great singer?

Excellent and thought-provoking observations.

I am actually listening to Mario Lanza as I type this. Some of his music is thrilling (e.g. Be My Love) and the whole of The Student Prince soundtrack is particularly well sung. In the latter, 'Golden Days' ends on a beautiful falsetto note whereas too often he would bellow out the top note - and that is what spoils his singing for me.

The fact that Elvis could convincingly sing in so many styles is, I think, one of the key reasons why we all inhabit this board.

Steve Morse

[trouble_jw]

Can i have the link please

I also would love to hear it!Thanks!

Sure; it sounds like it would be quite a treat!rjm

I would welcome a link.

Me also please

Sure [check your Inboxes later].

Will look forward to reading your comments.

Wow, thats powerful!

[TJ]

It was Elvis warming up his voice at a session where he wasn't in particularly great voice anyway. Under better circumstances, he would have produced better results even in that key. As it stands, Elvis would probably be quite annoyed that fans got to hear it.

[elvisalisellers]

I Had a couple of listens ,andmust say it works very well,boy Mario could sing couldnt he.would have made a nice duet for them

Wow, thats powerful!

Thanks guys [and also to those who sent PM's that were courteous enough to respond to the download link provided], pleased you dig it!

It took a great deal of time and effort to make this Lanza "duet" work, so I'm happy the majority of people appear to really like it.

[Revelator]

Mahalia Jackson's version of "The Lord's Prayer" was also a likely version on Elvis's informal rendition--I believe Ernst J. mentions this in A Life in Music.

[elvisalisellers]

Mahalia Jackson's version of "The Lord's Prayer" was also a likely version on Elvis's informal rendition--I believe Ernst J. mentions this in A Life in Music.

It's clearly Lanza's August '51 studio recording that acts as the template for Elvis' informal version from May '71.
The vocal phrasing and diction alone are virtually inseparable.

..
The isolated version used to create the Lanza/Presley duet edit

[dannyboy1]

Thank you for the link. There has been a lot of work and thought gone into it. Very uplifting for a spiritual soul like myself.

[elvisalisellers]

Thank you for the link. There has been a lot of work and thought gone into it. Very uplifting for a spiritual soul like myself.

Thanks very much for your kind words, appreciate it.

[James27]

And that touching Marvin Gaye version was filmed and recorded in a church in Belgium, my country, where he went to get clean and get away from it all in The States.
Oostende revitalized him. Elvis could have used a bit of that too in 1977, actually more than a bit. Just mingle amongst the people, and jog, eath healthy, like Marvin did.

What a brilliant singer, what soul. Where have all those guys gone? Marvin, Elvis, all these guys. Nobody today even comes close in terms of sheer talent and inspiredness.