Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

[Greg1995]

How about leaving this topic (a lot of arguments were discussed here in 8 years period, we have no new info)
until some relevatory proof or information will (eventually) come up in the future and THEN we can discuss??
You guys here have milked every possible circumstances and possibilities, this adds nothing without an evidence.
I have nothing against discussion but this thread has turned into a boxing ring a long time ago.

As of now: there is no SUN version of "Tiger Man" by Elvis Presley!

How about cherishing 1955 live version of "Danny Boy" performed by Elvis Presley, which we know has been recorded, but eraised??
This one we know actually EXISTED at some point!

[poormadpeter2]

How about leaving this topic (a lot of arguments were discussed here in 8 years period, we have no new info)
until some relevatory proof or information will (eventually) come up in the future and THEN we can discuss??
You guys here have milked every possible circumstances and possibilities, this adds nothing without an evidence.
I have nothing against discussion but this thread has turned into a boxing ring a long time ago.

As of now: there is no SUN version of "Tiger Man" by Elvis Presley!

How about cherishing live 1955 version of "Danny Boy" performer by Elvis Presley, which we know has been recorded, but eraised ??
We know this one EXISTED!

The thread was bumped a week or so ago by the OP, with no extra info or evidence. Just for the attention.

[Greg1995]

I don't know is this of any importance to anybody but I'll say it anyway.
Three months ago I talked to a guy who runs a german funclub and is also a big private collector.
I asked about "Tiger Man" recording possibility and he said "No".
He had brought up this question to a man who was responsible at SUN
for running recording equipment while Sam was in a recording booth.

What was the guy's name who worked at Sun?

I wonder why the OP hasn't responded to your post?

Because it goes against everything he is trying to prove in this thread!



Keith

He might have or not told me the name. Either way I don't remember.

[mike edwards66]

All speculation. But its fine by me.

Hard evidence like ..paperwork..audio..eye witness..newspaper reports..would be better..though..

OK. When Elvis said "that was my second record, that I ever recorded" he was speaking literally. After recording "My Happiness" at Sun with Marion Keisker at the helm, and whilst waiting hopefully for Sam Phillips to contact him, Elvis made a second record at another recording service.

Hence, no paperwork at Sun and hence, Elvis' cryptic reference "not too many people heard it". In August 1970, one of the few people that had "heard it" showed up, hung around for a while and sparked Elvis' memory.


1972 - Elvis reconfirms, in a matter of fact manner, that "Tiger Man" was the "second record" that he "ever recorded".


1970 - Elvis refers to "Tiger Man" as the second record he ever recorded, and gives a cryptic clue that "not too many people heard it". This is because one of the few people that had "heard it" showed up, hung around for a while and sparked Elvis' memory.


1968 - A statement of intent. After years in the "wilderness", Elvis is telling us that, contrary to what we may have heard, he is the still the king of the jungle!


1953/4 - After recording "My Happiness" at Sun with Marion Keisker at the helm, and whilst waiting hopefully for Sam Phillips to contact him, Elvis made a second record, the second that he ever recorded, at another recording service. Outside the box, but totally plausible. As Ernst Jorgensen noted "...weeks and months went by and he (Elvis) heard nothing.......he couldn't stand it anymore.."

I have to agree with the idea that he did it somewhere else. He may have been frustrated with Phillips.

Thank you. It makes perfect sense and all the pieces fit. No paperwork at Sun and Elvis' cryptic reference "not too many people heard it". Having got the bug, Elvis would have been itching to record again. As Ernst Jorgensen noted "...weeks and months went by and he (Elvis) heard nothing.......he couldn't stand it anymore.."

[Greg1995]

I saw James Burton in January.
I had in my mind to ask him when giving autographs
if Elvis said anything about the song when he brought it to rehearsals in 69'.
I did not... Dammit!

[James1954]

There is absolutely no chance that Presley went to any other recording facility to record anything. I grew up in the region, I knew many of the people that were there at the time and who knew Presley. If he had done anything someone would have said something, someone would have tried to cash-in. Before Sun's breakthrough there were very few places in the area to record, in the latter part of the fifties there were over 80 labels in the Memphis region but Presley was already at RCA. WDIA was only interested in African American performers and would have advised Presley to go and see Sam Phillips, Lillian McMurry at Trumpet in Mississippi, Sun's competitor, had very little interest in white performers and preferred dealing with more experienced artists. Meteor, where several Sun performers moonlighted, is a possibility but the Biharis would have released anything they had on Presley and it would have been found by now.

The Memphis scene was extremely tight and small, if Presley was going around to other facilities people would have talked about it merely because he was so weird - Presley was known around Memphis and he was considered pretty strange, and Memphis had its share of weirdos. The reason he took off in Texas first was that his style of dressing and music was much more common there, he fit right in. Much of this topic is just fantasy without any background knowledge.

[drjohncarpenter]

There is absolutely no chance that Presley went to any other recording facility to record anything. I grew up in the region, I knew many of the people that were there at the time and who knew Presley. If he had done anything someone would have said something, someone would have tried to cash-in. Before Sun's breakthrough there were very few places in the area to record, in the latter part of the fifties there were over 80 labels in the Memphis region but Presley was already at RCA. WDIA was only interested in African American performers and would have advised Presley to go and see Sam Phillips, Lillian McMurry at Trumpet in Mississippi, Sun's competitor, had very little interest in white performers and preferred dealing with more experienced artists. Meteor, where several Sun performers moonlighted, is a possibility but the Biharis would have released anything they had on Presley and it would have been found by now.

The Memphis scene was extremely tight and small, if Presley was going around to other facilities people would have talked about it merely because he was so weird - Presley was known around Memphis and he was considered pretty strange, and Memphis had its share of weirdos. The reason he took off in Texas first was that his style of dressing and music was much more common there, he fit right in. Much of this topic is just fantasy without any background knowledge.

Thanks for underscoring what I already wrote in a VERY detailed reply to rjm, and her thoughtful post a page back. Did you see it?

It is not feasible Elvis recorded anywhere other than Sun in 1953-1954. We know for a fact he did record elsewhere in 1955.

"Much of this topic is just fantasy without any background knowledge."

I have no idea what this comment means, as these facts have been made plain in the course of the discussion:

- Elvis adored the song "Tiger Man" from the moment it was released on Sun Records
- Elvis listened to WDIA Radio in Memphis, knew the disc jockeys and the music
- Elvis attended the WDIA Benefit shows in December 1956 and December 1957
- Sam Phillips made acetates of unreleased songs cut by Elvis for disc jockeys to preview on-air
- The majority of the small combo songs rehearsed or done live in June 1968 were from 1954-1957
- Elvis rehearsed "When It Rains It Pours" with the small combo in June 1968, and in 1983 a Sun recording of it was released
- Elvis rehearsed and performed "Tiger Man" live in June 1968
- The 1968 performance of "Tiger Man" was issued on LP in November 1968
- The 1968 performance of "Tiger Man" was seen by millions on national TV in August 1969
- Elvis performed, at minimum, EIGHT stand-alone live versions of "Tiger Man" in August 1970
- Each of these stand-alone live versions had pointed, serious introductions where he called it his "second record"
- More "second record" introductions where he sings "Tiger Man" are found on sporadic live recordings in 1971 and 1972
- There are no known, stand-alone live versions of "Mystery Train" from July 1969 to June 1977
- No other introductions are known of Elvis calling something a "second record" without a performance of "Tiger Man" involved

All of these things deserve serious consideration, but if you believe this is "just fantasy" I cannot agree.

[mike edwards66]

There is absolutely no chance that Presley went to any other recording facility to record anything. I grew up in the region, I knew many of the people that were there at the time and who knew Presley. If he had done anything someone would have said something, someone would have tried to cash-in.

They could only have cashed-in if they knew about it. If the young Elvis had walked into a 'facility' with, like the Memphis Recording Service, just one person minding shop. If he had walked in, threw his 4 bucks or whatever on the counter, cut a record and left, no one, or at least 'not too many people' would have known about it.

But, what we are dealing with here, is making sense from what Elvis said in 1970 (and again in 1972). Namely, that Tiger Man was the second record he ever recorded.

In that respect, I offer that when Elvis said "that was my second record, that I ever recorded" he was speaking literally. After recording "My Happiness" at Sun with Marion Keisker at the helm, and whilst waiting hopefully for Sam Phillips to contact him, Elvis made a second record at another recording service.

Hence, no paperwork at Sun and hence, Elvis' cryptic reference "not too many people heard it".

This would tie-in perfectly with Ernst Jorgensen noted "...weeks and months went by and he (Elvis) heard nothing.........he couldn't stand it anymore.."

In August 1970, perhaps one of the few people that had "heard it" showed up, hung around for a while and sparked Elvis' memory.

[James1954]

There were no other record your own song facilities in Memphis at the time. Your next post will be "Oh, he could have gone to Atlanta. Or here or there." It's a fantasy based on an alternative world and no facts, fake news in fact.

John - I accept the facts you present, not the conclusions you reach. I was referring to the fantasy turn it has taken where facts of the period are being disregarded - recording elsewhere. I apologise for the blanket statement regarding the whole topic. I do think Elvis could have messed around with Tiger Man at Sun and maybe it was recorded, but the tape is lost or wiped over. I did take the pledge.

[mike edwards66]

There were no other record your own song facilities in Memphis at the time. Your next post will be "Oh, he could have gone to Atlanta. Or here or there." It's a fantasy based on an alternative world and no facts, fake news in fact.

My next post is "You're missing the point". What we are dealing with here, is making sense from what Elvis said in 1970 (and again in 1972). Namely, that Tiger Man was the second record he ever recorded.

[Domino]

There were no other record your own song facilities in Memphis at the time. Your next post will be "Oh, he could have gone to Atlanta. Or here or there." It's a fantasy based on an alternative world and no facts, fake news in fact.

My next post is "You're missing the point". What we are dealing with here, is making sense from what Elvis said in 1970 (and again in 1972). Namely, that Tiger Man was the second record he ever recorded.

I still like this line of thinking.It really does fit with what Elvis says.A record between the 1st and 2nd records at Sun makes it a second record.
But if there was no place around to do this then it kind of puts us back to square 1.

[James1954]

There were no other record your own song facilities in Memphis at the time. Your next post will be "Oh, he could have gone to Atlanta. Or here or there." It's a fantasy based on an alternative world and no facts, fake news in fact.

My next post is "You're missing the point". What we are dealing with here, is making sense from what Elvis said in 1970 (and again in 1972). Namely, that Tiger Man was the second record he ever recorded.

It was stage patter and Elvis was mistaken, as performers often are when they are in the eye of a hurricane as he was. There is no sense other than than southern story telling, we bend the facts to suit the story we'd like. Your dogs ain't huntin'.

[rjm]

Someone did talk about it. Billy Emerson.

They weren't supposed to be back there. But maybe Emerson misremembered. We will never know.

For me, this thread is important because it is how I discovered FECC. I heard the audio samples on a dialup connection before that hard drive died and I was THRILLED!

So I have been very intrigued by the topic ever since. At the time, I was listening to a lot of pre-Elvis Sun, especially from 1953. And I wondered what the heck happened with the driven young Searcher during that frustrating time. With a car, Memphis isn't as big as you might think. And Elvis couldn't give a rat's behind about Jim Crow since he was a child. He went wherever he wanted to go.

Perhaps he loved the record, sang it a lot, but never cut it. Maybe he thought it was captured on a Sun radio demo in 1954. We have not many outtakes even of the songs he did get released. You can't fault any of us fans for wanting to know more about 1953-1954. After that, we know almost everything. See, that's the adventure! Some Mystery Trains disappear into the dark night, precious cargo aboard, never to return. But we remember the ghostly train.

By mid 1955, Elvis was so good, he stopped a train in his version of the old folk line about the long black train that was 16 coaches long. "took my baby/never will again . . . whooo!"

rjm

[drjohncarpenter]

There were no other record your own song facilities in Memphis at the time. Your next post will be "Oh, he could have gone to Atlanta. Or here or there." It's a fantasy based on an alternative world and no facts, fake news in fact.

John - I accept the facts you present, not the conclusions you reach. I was referring to the fantasy turn it has taken where facts of the period are being disregarded - recording elsewhere. I apologise for the blanket statement regarding the whole topic. I do think Elvis could have messed around with Tiger Man at Sun and maybe it was recorded, but the tape is lost or wiped over. I did take the pledge.

Thanks so much. I am really enjoying your posts, please contribute as often as possible. We need folks like you to balance out the discussions here. As you can tell, they get a little crazy sometimes.

I suspect no tape can possibly exist. But an acetate ...

[Scarre]

Someone did talk about it. Billy Emerson.

They weren't supposed to be back there. But maybe Emerson misremembered. We will never know.

For me, this thread is important because it is how I discovered FECC. I heard the audio samples on a dialup connection before that hard drive died and I was THRILLED!

So I have been very intrigued by the topic ever since. At the time, I was listening to a lot of pre-Elvis Sun, especially from 1953. And I wondered what the heck happened with the driven young Searcher during that frustrating time. With a car, Memphis isn't as big as you might think. And Elvis couldn't give a rat's behind about Jim Crow since he was a child. He went wherever he wanted to go.

Perhaps he loved the record, sang it a lot, but never cut it. Maybe he thought it was captured on a Sun radio demo in 1954. We have not many outtakes even of the songs he did get released. You can't fault any of us fans for wanting to know more about 1953-1954. After that, we know almost everything. See, that's the adventure! Some Mystery Trains disappear into the dark night, precious cargo aboard, never to return. But we remember the ghostly train.

By mid 1955, Elvis was so good, he stopped a train in his version of the old folk line about the long black train that was 16 coaches long. "took my baby/never will again . . . whooo!"

rjm

A very short playlist...

[mike edwards66]

It was stage patter and Elvis was mistaken, as performers often are when they are in the eye of a hurricane as he was. There is no sense other than than southern story telling, we bend the facts to suit the story we'd like.

If you have issue with the veracity of Elvis' stage patter and southern story telling, you can take it up with topic author. Apparently, he is really enjoying your posts.



We have moved past that, and are pondering, if what Elvis said WAS correct, how could it be. Almost two years ago now, MikeFromHolland went to the trouble of identifying the origins of this topic and listing some enlightened FECCers who were happy to consider the second studio theory. Crazy, huh:

SOME HISTORY ABOUT The 2nd STUDIO HYPOTHESIS

The origins of this thread: http://www.elvis-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=801822#p801822 (Aug. 24, 2010 by the in this OP or thread uncredited ColinB and billyblues)


On March 5, 2012 George Smith already came up with the hypothesis of another studio which Elvis might have used: "Did he record it for another studio?" (http://www.elvis-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55284&start=425#p1009448)


No one responded to this. A later remark by rjm: "Agreed. But you missed the most important thing I said. HE NEVER SAID "AT SUN." Or even alluded to it in any way. Not "my second record/song for the guy" -- NOTHING to indicate Sun or Sam Phillips." (http://www.elvis-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55284&start=475#p1164404)

On May 3, 2013 rpm wrote:

"It is IMPROBABLE. But it may be the truth. Or it may not. We must first eliminate "the impossible." Then go on to persue whatever is left, however improbable.

It is quite possible that Elvis was telling the truth. That cannot be eliminated.

It is seeming less possible that he recorded it at Sam Phillips's facility.

How to reconcile?

Here is pretty much what "is left." This makes sense, however improbable.

Okay:

Billy Emerson, claimed in an interview (I posted one of the quotes a while back, as a scan from a book) that he and Elvis made demos together. "In the back of a radio station." Elsewhere, he identified the station as WDIA.

Elvis knew the Phineas and Calvin Newborn family quite well. According to a Stanley Booth interview (1989, Village Voice), Elvis was a casual visitor to their home. The Newborns made demos back there, hiring singers. They got paid for these demos.

Emerson was unclear as to dates. But HE made demos there. And said Elvis did so with him, on occasion.

As I said, pure speculation. Brainstorming. I don't even care if I hear such a recording. It surely no longer exists, anyway, if ever it did exist.

I would like to pursue the matter further. "

So Radio Station WDIA became a second option to investigate. (http://www.elvis-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55284&start=475#p1164412)



In this topic called "Tiger Man - Did Elvis record it at Sun?" DGRYAN1977 wrote: "This is a complete shot in the dark and I am sure my theory is wrong but, who said it was during any session with Scotty and Bill?
Is it all possible that Elvis recorded a "demo" in between the "my happiness" and "I'll never stand in your way" recordings?
It seems all theories pertaining to SUN lead to a dead end so this was the only thing I could possibly come up with.
Were there any other recording studios or places to record yourself in or around Memphis?
Especially since Elvis said "not too many people know the story". There must be more to it then just a recording session at SUN records with Scotty and Bill." (http://www.elvis-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=88579#p1392771). But again no one responded.

[drjohncarpenter]

It was stage patter and Elvis was mistaken, as performers often are when they are in the eye of a hurricane as he was. There is no sense other than than southern story telling, we bend the facts to suit the story we'd like. Your dogs ain't huntin'.

If anything, this topic has laid out in explicit terms that this was NOT "stage patter" at all.

"Stage patter" is nothing more than talking at length without saying anything significant.

His words in regards to these stand-alone performances of "Tiger Man" are quite remarkable, and meant to inform. He even OPENS one show with the song. There is nothing we have in the hundreds of live recordings from 1969-1977 that compares to these very specific, unique events.

It's the whole reason I created this topic, your dismissal implies you have not listened to the eight examples that were recorded from the audience in August 1970. I've heard virtually every single live recording out there, and when I reviewed these examples, the hair went up on the back of my neck. This was different from everything I'd heard before.

The only thing that came close in terms of feeling, and truth, were the spooky, revelatory "life story" monologues he shared with the summer 1969 audiences, and never again.

[poormadpeter2]

It was stage patter and Elvis was mistaken, as performers often are when they are in the eye of a hurricane as he was. There is no sense other than than southern story telling, we bend the facts to suit the story we'd like. Your dogs ain't huntin'.

If anything, this topic has laid out in explicit terms that this was NOT "stage patter" at all.

"Stage patter" is nothing more than talking at length without saying anything significant.

His words in regards to these stand-alone performances of "Tiger Man" are quite remarkable, and meant to inform. He even OPENS one show with the song. There is nothing we have in the hundreds of live recordings from 1969-1977 that compares to these very specific, unique events.

It's the whole reason I created this topic, your dismissal implies you have not listened to the eight examples that were recorded from the audience in August 1970. I've heard virtually every single live recording out there, and when I reviewed these examples, the hair went up on the back of my neck. This was different from everything I'd heard before.

The only thing that came close in terms of feeling, and truth, were the spooky, revelatory "life story" monologues he shared with the summer 1969 audiences, and never again.

He opened shows with c c rider, but it doesn't mean he recorded it at Sun as his second record.

[James1954]

John, I actually have no interest in the topic other than what I can bring to the table in terms of historical knowledge and my experience. I'll stop providing that if you like. I don't place much store in Presley's words about this. I have listened to some of the material you provided but it's boring and I have no interest in Presley apart from his fifties material. My wife was the Elvis jumpsuit gal, I'm a rockabilly/Yardbirds guy.

I will throw you something that came back into my mind from long ago. Billy Poore has said that in 1974 he visited Charlie Feathers and Charlie played him a tape from Sun. Charlie said it was unheard of material from Elvis - a version of Charlie's We're Getting Closer to Being Apart and a version of Good Rockin' Tonight with Charlie and Sam coaching Elvis on the performance. Billy is certain it was Elvis he heard and he listened to the tape more than once. Charlie has been villified and denigrated, but Phillips and Johnny Cash, among others have said he was there at Sun when it all went down. Billy met Charlie before he became ornery, when he was far more open about things. Billy doesn't invent stories, he doesn't need to, and Charlie had a huge store of tapes. I believe him about the tape. If Tiger Man exists it will be someplace like that. I bow out of this almost religous like search for meaning in Presley's words.

[FECC-Moderator]

Topic locked until further notice

[FECC-Moderator]

The topic has been unlocked.. Recent posts have been either deleted or edited.. please keep things civil, and stop with the endless Jarvis baitings, this topic is about the possibility of Elvis trying out ''Tiger Man'' At sun.. and Jarvis has nothing to do with that.
Also stop the endless ''Troll'' baiting... This is considered a personal attack.. and be done already with the pledge thing.

If anyone for whatever reason decides to start making things personal again, or starts throwing insults towards members because it doesn't fit their agenda.. Suspensions will be made, and this topic will be locked indefinetly.

[sitdown revamped]

John, I actually have no interest in the topic other than what I can bring to the table in terms of historical knowledge and my experience. I'll stop providing that if you like. I don't place much store in Presley's words about this. I have listened to some of the material you provided but it's boring and I have no interest in Presley apart from his fifties material. My wife was the Elvis jumpsuit gal, I'm a rockabilly/Yardbirds guy.

I will throw you something that came back into my mind from long ago. Billy Poore has said that in 1974 he visited Charlie Feathers and Charlie played him a tape from Sun. Charlie said it was unheard of material from Elvis - a version of Charlie's We're Getting Closer to Being Apart and a version of Good Rockin' Tonight with Charlie and Sam coaching Elvis on the performance. Billy is certain it was Elvis he heard and he listened to the tape more than once. Charlie has been villified and denigrated, but Phillips and Johnny Cash, among others have said he was there at Sun when it all went down. Billy met Charlie before he became ornery, when he was far more open about things. Billy doesn't invent stories, he doesn't need to, and Charlie had a huge store of tapes. I believe him about the tape. If Tiger Man exists it will be someplace like that. I bow out of this almost religous like search for meaning in Presley's words.

interesting. What happened to Charlie Feathers tape collection...? Anyway, 40+ years is quite a long time. Kind regards, Peter

[rjm]

Someone did talk about it. Billy Emerson.

They weren't supposed to be back there. But maybe Emerson misremembered. We will never know.

For me, this thread is important because it is how I discovered FECC. I heard the audio samples on a dialup connection before that hard drive died and I was THRILLED!

So I have been very intrigued by the topic ever since. At the time, I was listening to a lot of pre-Elvis Sun, especially from 1953. And I wondered what the heck happened with the driven young Searcher during that frustrating time. With a car, Memphis isn't as big as you might think. And Elvis couldn't give a rat's behind about Jim Crow since he was a child. He went wherever he wanted to go.

Perhaps he loved the record, sang it a lot, but never cut it. Maybe he thought it was captured on a Sun radio demo in 1954. We have not many outtakes even of the songs he did get released. You can't fault any of us fans for wanting to know more about 1953-1954. After that, we know almost everything. See, that's the adventure! Some Mystery Trains disappear into the dark night, precious cargo aboard, never to return. But we remember the ghostly train.

By mid 1955, Elvis was so good, he stopped a train in his version of the old folk line about the long black train that was 16 coaches long. "took my baby/never will again . . . whooo!"

rjm

A very short playlist...

True. But it was good stuff. Also, pre-1953 as well.

rjm

[drjohncarpenter]

John, I actually have no interest in the topic other than what I can bring to the table in terms of historical knowledge and my experience. I'll stop providing that if you like. I don't place much store in Presley's words about this. I have listened to some of the material you provided but it's boring and I have no interest in Presley apart from his fifties material. My wife was the Elvis jumpsuit gal, I'm a rockabilly/Yardbirds guy.

I will throw you something that came back into my mind from long ago. Billy Poore has said that in 1974 he visited Charlie Feathers and Charlie played him a tape from Sun. Charlie said it was unheard of material from Elvis - a version of Charlie's We're Getting Closer to Being Apart and a version of Good Rockin' Tonight with Charlie and Sam coaching Elvis on the performance. Billy is certain it was Elvis he heard and he listened to the tape more than once. Charlie has been villified and denigrated, but Phillips and Johnny Cash, among others have said he was there at Sun when it all went down. Billy met Charlie before he became ornery, when he was far more open about things. Billy doesn't invent stories, he doesn't need to, and Charlie had a huge store of tapes. I believe him about the tape. If Tiger Man exists it will be someplace like that. I bow out of this almost religous like search for meaning in Presley's words.

Unfortunately, Billy Poore's reputation for the veracity of his stories is as suspect as the photo he distributes of himself and Elvis from 1976:

http://www.rockabillyhall.com/billypoore.html

The photo is a fabrication.

And, of course, Charlie Feathers was nothing if not a wild raconteur.

I appreciate your input here, but I also hope you appreciate my right to disagree with some of your assertions.

[chop983]

I have a question, has anyone else ever recorded Tiger man at sun other than theoriginal.