Elvis Presley At 3AM - Lake Tahoe 1973 (Memphis Recording Service)

[PiersEIN]

Almost a thousand-word post.
Look away, nothing to see here . . .

Almost a twelve-word post.
Look away, some people aren't very literate . .

[elvis-fan]

[drjohncarpenter]

Almost a twelve-word post.
Look away, some people aren't very literate . .

If only I was an Aussie owner of a shady grey market label, you'd post a thousand words defending my business too.

[Lee Wood]

Back On Topic and away from personal slander...

It is easy to see that the same people moaning about MRS were the same FECC posters who praised the bootleggers when they put out the stolen RCA material first time around.
ie, Madison was such a GREAT label putting out stolen RCA material, yet in 2023 MRS is so so horrible when they put out the same stolen RCA material.
Now that is ironic.

Well, this has become quite the topic.
The August '72 shows from MRS sound amazing to me - much better than my FTD sets with the same shows - and FTD has still yet to give us the opening show from January 1972. Maybe this is a tape that never made it to the Sony/FTD archives and we'll look at Ernst as using a bootleg as a source to release this show - if they ever do. Did Ernst use the bootleg of this show to add a few tracks to the "An American Trilogy" CD?

SO TRUE - the MRS audio remaster of 1972 Closing Night puts Madison's, Rock Legends' and also FTD's version to shame.
There is no way you can go back to the hissy old versions when you hear the MRS remaster.

If FTD have already released the recordings, and fans have already bought them, and MRS according to you are just copying what FTD have already released, why would fans waste money to buy the MRS release? How would that affect FTD’s income?

If MRS put out something new prior to FTD putting it out, once again, that is not MRS’s fault but FTDs. Further, and under that scenario, if FTD have not yet released it, then MRS cannot have stolen it from them.

If you are suggesting that MRS have an advantage over FTD because they sell their products across Europe and the U.K. via record shops and places like Amazon, then once again, that is the fault of FTD’s business model
Bottom line here is that the ball seems to be well and truly in FTD’s court.

And emjel is right.

if MRS put out material AFTER FTD has released it, it will not affect FTD sales.
I am a collector so have usually first bought the bootleg, then the "improved bootleg", then the FTD version and now the MRS version.
And in almost all cases the MRS version has been the best audio remastering.

MRS has never affected my FTD purchases. Except when MRS put out their "1971 Vegas" collection which was of course before FTD put out a lesser package of exactly the same material.
And then, obviously, MRS could not have used the FTD release as a source.

As far as I am aware MRS stick to the 50 year Public Domain rule yet there are other labels selling Elvis product on Amazon that do not stick to that rule.
ie 'Mid-South Coliseum, Memphis, 5th July 1976' on the Rox Vox label.
They have plenty of sales and reviews but unlike MRS no remastering and the same old bad audio.
Why are the MRS haters here not discussing these other Amazon sellers who are definitely breaching the PD laws?

If MRS sales threaten FTD (which i doubt they do) then FTD / SONY should be releasing similar cheap sets.

I am certain that MRS major sales come via Amazon and the general public - the majority of whom wouldn't buy or likely don't know about the FTD label.
SONY did a cut-down set with 'Tupelo', it only is a shame that SONY won't green-light more of the same.

Of course, the easy money is via digital and SONY artists such as Harry Styles, Adele, Beyonce, Sza, Travis Scott, Pharrell Williams etc are making a ton of money for the label
Let's face it Doja Cat (who did Hound Dog in the Baz ELVIS movie) has recently sold 35 million records so is unfortunately far far more important to SONY's income than anything old school like our man Elvis.

If MRS can make good quality ELVIS product and flog it via mainstream on-line stores then perhaps we should be more angry at SONY for not doing the same.

Cheers,
Piers

Almost a thousand-word post.

Look away, nothing to see here . . .

There's plenty to see. You only ignore it because you're an MRS hater and you deny everything due to some strange agenda of yours. Why are you not calling out the bootleggers?

[elvinda58]

I will be buying this regardless of the source as i have been very impressed with the M.R.S releases so far.

[emjel]

Back On Topic and away from personal slander...

It is easy to see that the same people moaning about MRS were the same FECC posters who praised the bootleggers when they put out the stolen RCA material first time around.
ie, Madison was such a GREAT label putting out stolen RCA material, yet in 2023 MRS is so so horrible when they put out the same stolen RCA material.
Now that is ironic.

Well, this has become quite the topic.
The August '72 shows from MRS sound amazing to me - much better than my FTD sets with the same shows - and FTD has still yet to give us the opening show from January 1972. Maybe this is a tape that never made it to the Sony/FTD archives and we'll look at Ernst as using a bootleg as a source to release this show - if they ever do. Did Ernst use the bootleg of this show to add a few tracks to the "An American Trilogy" CD?

SO TRUE - the MRS audio remaster of 1972 Closing Night puts Madison's, Rock Legends' and also FTD's version to shame.
There is no way you can go back to the hissy old versions when you hear the MRS remaster.

If FTD have already released the recordings, and fans have already bought them, and MRS according to you are just copying what FTD have already released, why would fans waste money to buy the MRS release? How would that affect FTD’s income?

If MRS put out something new prior to FTD putting it out, once again, that is not MRS’s fault but FTDs. Further, and under that scenario, if FTD have not yet released it, then MRS cannot have stolen it from them.

If you are suggesting that MRS have an advantage over FTD because they sell their products across Europe and the U.K. via record shops and places like Amazon, then once again, that is the fault of FTD’s business model
Bottom line here is that the ball seems to be well and truly in FTD’s court.

And emjel is right.

if MRS put out material AFTER FTD has released it, it will not affect FTD sales.
I am a collector so have usually first bought the bootleg, then the "improved bootleg", then the FTD version and now the MRS version.
And in almost all cases the MRS version has been the best audio remastering.

MRS has never affected my FTD purchases. Except when MRS put out their "1971 Vegas" collection which was of course before FTD put out a lesser package of exactly the same material.
And then, obviously, MRS could not have used the FTD release as a source.

As far as I am aware MRS stick to the 50 year Public Domain rule yet there are other labels selling Elvis product on Amazon that do not stick to that rule.
ie 'Mid-South Coliseum, Memphis, 5th July 1976' on the Rox Vox label.
They have plenty of sales and reviews but unlike MRS no remastering and the same old bad audio.
Why are the MRS haters here not discussing these other Amazon sellers who are definitely breaching the PD laws?

If MRS sales threaten FTD (which i doubt they do) then FTD / SONY should be releasing similar cheap sets.

I am certain that MRS major sales come via Amazon and the general public - the majority of whom wouldn't buy or likely don't know about the FTD label.
SONY did a cut-down set with 'Tupelo', it only is a shame that SONY won't green-light more of the same.

Of course, the easy money is via digital and SONY artists such as Harry Styles, Adele, Beyonce, Sza, Travis Scott, Pharrell Williams etc are making a ton of money for the label
Let's face it Doja Cat (who did Hound Dog in the Baz ELVIS movie) has recently sold 35 million records so is unfortunately far far more important to SONY's income than anything old school like our man Elvis.

If MRS can make good quality ELVIS product and flog it via mainstream on-line stores then perhaps we should be more angry at SONY for not doing the same.

Cheers,
Piers

Almost a thousand-word post.

Look away, nothing to see here . . .

There's plenty to see. You only ignore it because you're an MRS hater and you deny everything due to some strange agenda of yours. Why are you not calling out the bootleggers?

I believe this has little to do with MRS as a company but a personal vendetta with the owner. I doubt anything would be said if these 1973 soundboards were released by the Madison Label or indeed about these shows from 1974 that the Millbranch Music import record label are releasing soon where they state "The soundboard tapes have been restored extremely careful for the best sound quality possible. Capture the raw energy and charisma of Elvis in Kansas City."

So I wonder where these soundboard tapes have come from. Now I’m sure that someone will tell us one way or the other if FTD have previously put out these shows , but if they haven’t, then they can’t have stolen them or should I say copied them from FTD discs. Perhaps it was a covert operation and someone broke into FTDs storage facility and actually stole the physical cassettes or just removed the hard drive that they were stored on. But here’s the bigger question. What if FTD didn’t actually have copies to steal in the first place? Well that would suggest that despite being told that there can only be one copy of soundboard recorded tapes and that these were handed over to RCA for safe keeping and possible future release, there are other copies out there…..somewhere. And I wonder if that applies to this forthcoming MRS release….that there were other copies of the tape out there and MRS didn’t actually steal (whoops) copied anything from FTD discs.

I guess that’s something we will never know unless FTD/Sony feel there has definitely been a copyright infringement by MRS and then do something about it via legal proceedings.

[Lee Wood]

I believe this has little to do with MRS as a company but a personal vendetta with the owner.

That's exactly what it is, as most of us know.

[JohanD]

One thing is for sure, MRS has some great sound producers.
And also... No one buying the MRS product refuses to buy the FTD versions....
Like EP said: there is room enough for everyone.

[elvis-fan]

Do we have any sound samples from this release yet?

[Wayfarer]

It is easy to see that the same people moaning about MRS were the same FECC posters who praised the bootleggers when they put out the stolen RCA material first time around.
ie, Madison was such a GREAT label putting out stolen RCA material, yet in 2023 MRS is so so horrible when they put out the same stolen RCA material.
Now that is ironic.

I have not read this thread in any detail, but I will assume a couple of the same posters have been going after MRS again. Madison (and perhaps some other bootlegging labels) seems to be completely immune from this kind of special attention. There must be a good reason for this, surely. So, I am really interested in seeing an equally passionate berating of Madison's role in music.

[Lee Wood]

It is easy to see that the same people moaning about MRS were the same FECC posters who praised the bootleggers when they put out the stolen RCA material first time around.
ie, Madison was such a GREAT label putting out stolen RCA material, yet in 2023 MRS is so so horrible when they put out the same stolen RCA material.
Now that is ironic.

I have not read this thread in any detail, but I will assume a couple of the same posters have been going after MRS again. Madison (and perhaps some other bootlegging labels) seems to be completely immune from this kind of special attention. There must be a good reason for this, surely. So, I am really interested in seeing an equally passionate berating of Madison's role in music.

By all means kick it off, Wayfarer. Now remind me, who was involved in that label?

[Mississippi slim]

Can't we just all get along with each other. Merry Christmas and a happy new year. Always loved faded love from the 3am show.

[emjel]

Do we have any sound samples from this release yet?

It’s not scheduled for release until Feb 2024

[Rockin_John]

There will be no legal action as there is no illegal business being done. Simple as that.

What MRS put out (regardless of ones opinon of the FTD/MRS battle) are genuine products with a lot of effort put in to make it sound as good as possible and presented in the best possible way. If I could release excellent releases of my heros music, I would.

[Rockin_John]

To each his own. I pick the real thing. But I am biased...Im a FTD follower..in all honesty.

I am an Elvis-follower...

[Ciscoking]

FTD IS Elvis nowadays..
Nothing can compete with it. No matter what.
You know what I mean. Stay tuned for forthcoming
NEW Elvis music.

[Markus K.]

There will be no legal action as there is no illegal business being done. Simple as that.

What MRS put out (regardless of ones opinon of the FTD/MRS battle) are genuine products with a lot of effort put in to make it sound as good as possible and presented in the best possible way. If I could release excellent releases of my heros music, I would.

The shows on this upcoming release clearly don't fall under the PD law as the material has been officially released through FTD before the deadline for these recordings applied.
MRS simply assume they have nothing to fear and neither SONY nor FTD will bother going after them. This still does not make that release legal in the sense you want it to be.

[Markus K.]

Back On Topic and away from personal slander...

It is easy to see that the same people moaning about MRS were the same FECC posters who praised the bootleggers when they put out the stolen RCA material first time around.
ie, Madison was such a GREAT label putting out stolen RCA material, yet in 2023 MRS is so so horrible when they put out the same stolen RCA material.
Now that is ironic.

Well, this has become quite the topic.
The August '72 shows from MRS sound amazing to me - much better than my FTD sets with the same shows - and FTD has still yet to give us the opening show from January 1972. Maybe this is a tape that never made it to the Sony/FTD archives and we'll look at Ernst as using a bootleg as a source to release this show - if they ever do. Did Ernst use the bootleg of this show to add a few tracks to the "An American Trilogy" CD?

SO TRUE - the MRS audio remaster of 1972 Closing Night puts Madison's, Rock Legends' and also FTD's version to shame.
There is no way you can go back to the hissy old versions when you hear the MRS remaster.

If FTD have already released the recordings, and fans have already bought them, and MRS according to you are just copying what FTD have already released, why would fans waste money to buy the MRS release? How would that affect FTD’s income?

If MRS put out something new prior to FTD putting it out, once again, that is not MRS’s fault but FTDs. Further, and under that scenario, if FTD have not yet released it, then MRS cannot have stolen it from them.

If you are suggesting that MRS have an advantage over FTD because they sell their products across Europe and the U.K. via record shops and places like Amazon, then once again, that is the fault of FTD’s business model
Bottom line here is that the ball seems to be well and truly in FTD’s court.

And emjel is right.

if MRS put out material AFTER FTD has released it, it will not affect FTD sales.
I am a collector so have usually first bought the bootleg, then the "improved bootleg", then the FTD version and now the MRS version.
And in almost all cases the MRS version has been the best audio remastering.

MRS has never affected my FTD purchases. Except when MRS put out their "1971 Vegas" collection which was of course before FTD put out a lesser package of exactly the same material.
And then, obviously, MRS could not have used the FTD release as a source.

As far as I am aware MRS stick to the 50 year Public Domain rule yet there are other labels selling Elvis product on Amazon that do not stick to that rule.
ie 'Mid-South Coliseum, Memphis, 5th July 1976' on the Rox Vox label.
They have plenty of sales and reviews but unlike MRS no remastering and the same old bad audio.
Why are the MRS haters here not discussing these other Amazon sellers who are definitely breaching the PD laws?

If MRS sales threaten FTD (which i doubt they do) then FTD / SONY should be releasing similar cheap sets.

I am certain that MRS major sales come via Amazon and the general public - the majority of whom wouldn't buy or likely don't know about the FTD label.
SONY did a cut-down set with 'Tupelo', it only is a shame that SONY won't green-light more of the same.

Of course, the easy money is via digital and SONY artists such as Harry Styles, Adele, Beyonce, Sza, Travis Scott, Pharrell Williams etc are making a ton of money for the label
Let's face it Doja Cat (who did Hound Dog in the Baz ELVIS movie) has recently sold 35 million records so is unfortunately far far more important to SONY's income than anything old school like our man Elvis.

If MRS can make good quality ELVIS product and flog it via mainstream on-line stores then perhaps we should be more angry at SONY for not doing the same.

Cheers,
Piers

Almost a thousand-word post.

Look away, nothing to see here . . .

There's plenty to see. You only ignore it because you're an MRS hater and you deny everything due to some strange agenda of yours. Why are you not calling out the bootleggers?

I believe this has little to do with MRS as a company but a personal vendetta with the owner. I doubt anything would be said if these 1973 soundboards were released by the Madison Label or indeed about these shows from 1974 that the Millbranch Music import record label are releasing soon where they state "The soundboard tapes have been restored extremely careful for the best sound quality possible. Capture the raw energy and charisma of Elvis in Kansas City."

So I wonder where these soundboard tapes have come from. Now I’m sure that someone will tell us one way or the other if FTD have previously put out these shows , but if they haven’t, then they can’t have stolen them or should I say copied them from FTD discs. Perhaps it was a covert operation and someone broke into FTDs storage facility and actually stole the physical cassettes or just removed the hard drive that they were stored on. But here’s the bigger question. What if FTD didn’t actually have copies to steal in the first place? Well that would suggest that despite being told that there can only be one copy of soundboard recorded tapes and that these were handed over to RCA for safe keeping and possible future release, there are other copies out there…..somewhere. And I wonder if that applies to this forthcoming MRS release….that there were other copies of the tape out there and MRS didn’t actually steal (whoops) copied anything from FTD discs.

I guess that’s something we will never know unless FTD/Sony feel there has definitely been a copyright infringement by MRS and then do something about it via legal proceedings.

Just to re-assure you I was as vocal and against that release as I am against the MRS ones.

[Wayfarer]

It is easy to see that the same people moaning about MRS were the same FECC posters who praised the bootleggers when they put out the stolen RCA material first time around.
ie, Madison was such a GREAT label putting out stolen RCA material, yet in 2023 MRS is so so horrible when they put out the same stolen RCA material.
Now that is ironic.

I have not read this thread in any detail, but I will assume a couple of the same posters have been going after MRS again. Madison (and perhaps some other bootlegging labels) seems to be completely immune from this kind of special attention. There must be a good reason for this, surely. So, I am really interested in seeing an equally passionate berating of Madison's role in music.

By all means kick it off, Wayfarer. Now remind me, who was involved in that label?

It will be interesting to see Madison getting the same criticism. I suspect the request to see a matching response to that label's doings, will be met with a diversion to a side issue.

[emjel]

There will be no legal action as there is no illegal business being done. Simple as that.

What MRS put out (regardless of ones opinon of the FTD/MRS battle) are genuine products with a lot of effort put in to make it sound as good as possible and presented in the best possible way. If I could release excellent releases of my heros music, I would.

But unfortunately, it is not as simple as that because there are so many things we do not know. There are just too many assumptions and supposition taking place with accusations flying around of fraud and stealing and illegal copying without knowing all of the facts.

Of course, recordings that have fallen into public domain are excluded from us having to make these assumptions, because once in public domain, no one person or company can own it, even retrospectively.

But this is not the case with this particular release because the shows were recorded in 1973 and were not due to fall into public domain until 1st January 2024 if not previously released. The rule is 50 years from the year in which the sound recording was made. But if during that period the sound recording is published or made available to the public, copyright lasts for 70 years from that year of release.

Now the fact is that both of these shows have previously been released by FTD which means that both have a 70 year protection from the date they were first released.

The problem here is that we do not know who was first to obtain the recordings and release them and whilst it could be argued that it was obviously FTD, that is not necessarily the case because if MRS also acquired the recordings and released them somehow to just 100 people prior to FTD, that is deemed sufficient to qualify for having been released to the public, which is what Sony did with one of their Bob Dylan releases when they wanted to retain copyright for use at a later date.

So as you can see, this is a minefield of complexity, and where it is easy to assume or want to assume that because it is Elvis, then FTD are the good guys whilst all other labels are the bad guys, then until all facts are known, which is hardly likely to be documented unless civil action is taken and the media get hold if it, then throwing around insinuations and accusations would seem to be a complete waste of time.

If FTD hold the copyright and there has been an infringement of that, then FTD or Sony would be able to do something about it if they feel it is worthwhile. And time will tell in the next two months prior to the release of this set by MRS whether Sony have gone down that road or that they simply do not feel it is worthwhile based on the number of copies that MRS are likely to sell and whether those sales would be detrimental to Sony or FTD, bearing in mind that one of the shows was released a decade or so ago and there is no indication that FTD would bother with a re-release, purely because of the cost factor involved against potential sales, in other words, are there thousands of fans who did not buy the shows when originally released by FTD chomping at the bit to buy a re-release.

[drjohncarpenter]

One thing is for sure, MRS has some great sound producers.

"sound producers"

[drjohncarpenter]

There will be no legal action as there is no illegal business being done. Simple as that.

What MRS put out (regardless of ones opinon of the FTD/MRS battle) are genuine products with a lot of effort put in to make it sound as good as possible and presented in the best possible way. If I could release excellent releases of my heros music, I would.

The shows on this upcoming release clearly don't fall under the PD law as the material has been officially released through FTD before the deadline for these recordings applied.

MRS simply assume they have nothing to fear and neither SONY nor FTD will bother going after them. This still does not make that release legal in the sense you want it to be.

Yup. Simple as that.

[emjel]

You sure work hard for your little freeby

Not at all - there is nothing in my post that favours one company over the other. Just laying out all possibilities which you seem incapable of doing.

[PiersEIN]

There will be no legal action as there is no illegal business being done. Simple as that.

What MRS put out (regardless of ones opinon of the FTD/MRS battle) are genuine products with a lot of effort put in to make it sound as good as possible and presented in the best possible way. If I could release excellent releases of my heros music, I would.

That's a neat way of putting it.

I would be very happy putting together most of the enjoyable and absorbing sets that MRS have released.
The design is stylish, the text written by one of FECCs favourite writers, and the sound remastering is sensational.
More often than not a real improvement.
Their earlier 180 page Book / CD combos were stunning.
Certainly value-for-money compared to Madison's more recent bootleg illegal releases.
Cheers
Piers

[pmp]

There will be no legal action as there is no illegal business being done. Simple as that.

What MRS put out (regardless of ones opinon of the FTD/MRS battle) are genuine products with a lot of effort put in to make it sound as good as possible and presented in the best possible way. If I could release excellent releases of my heros music, I would.

The shows on this upcoming release clearly don't fall under the PD law as the material has been officially released through FTD before the deadline for these recordings applied.
MRS simply assume they have nothing to fear and neither SONY nor FTD will bother going after them. This still does not make that release legal in the sense you want it to be.

That's not strictly true. There is nothing "clear" about what MRS are doing, and we are not judge and jury as to whether the stereo-isation of the audio is enough to make it count in the eyes of the law as unissued audio. It's not up to us to make that decision.

There was an interesting case with Bear Family and their transfers and restorations of Carter Family recordings. When another company took their audio, Bear Family went after them - despite the recordings themselves being out of copyright. And they won. In other words, it was passed audio restoration can be copyrighted separately from the raw audio that is in the public domain.

That's not exactly the same as the FTD/MRS issue. The raw audio was definitely in the public domain to start with. But the Bear Family/JSP case certainly makes it more difficult to work out what a court of law would decide with regards to what MRS are doing - restoration that they are claiming to be a new, unreleased piece of work. It's a gamble for them, for sure, but Sony clearly don't feel their own case is strong enough to guarantee a victory, or they would have stepped in five or six years ago.