That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

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The Welz

That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by The Welz »

I got my copy of the latest FTD escape yesterday and I must say that I have some mixed feelings about it. The positive thing is, that I like the album very much and the new version obviously sounds better than the versions before. The artwork is well done and the booklet looks good to me. So there are no complains here, too.

But I still ask myself, why the outtakes sound so much better than the master takes. This happened quite a few times before and I still cannot understand why. Maybe the FTD people just remaster a copy of the original tapes and cannot remove the hiss and the (in other cases) dull sound. But if it is possible to re-mix and re-master the outtakes it may be possible to do the same with the masters! I am really angry about this. I listened to the album with my headphones and all the master takes had a certain ammount of hiss. That changed with the outtakes which sounded fresh and clear.

Ernst - what happened?

:?: :?: :?:




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JerryNodak

Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by JerryNodak »

There are things in the world that are worth getting angry about. This ain't one of them. Besides I don't have a problem with the masters. To my ears they sound a helluva lot better than on thee TTWII SE in 2000.




Topic author
The Welz

Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by The Welz »

"There are things in the world that are worth getting angry about. This ain't one of them."

:roll:



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Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by ColinB »

The Welz wrote:"There are things in the world that are worth getting angry about. This ain't one of them."

:roll:
Yeah, like piss-poor colourisation of classic 50's Elvis photos................


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Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by kuenzer »

ColinB wrote:
The Welz wrote:"There are things in the world that are worth getting angry about. This ain't one of them."

:roll:
Yeah, like piss-poor colourisation of classic 50's Elvis photos................
Warhol-like, I'd say.



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Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by familyjules »

The Welz wrote:I got my copy of the latest FTD escape yesterday and I must say that I have some mixed feelings about it. The positive thing is, that I like the album very much and the new version obviously sounds better than the versions before. The artwork is well done and the booklet looks good to me. So there are no complains here, too.

But I still ask myself, why the outtakes sound so much better than the master takes. This happened quite a few times before and I still cannot understand why. Maybe the FTD people just remaster a copy of the original tapes and cannot remove the hiss and the (in other cases) dull sound. But if it is possible to re-mix and re-master the outtakes it may be possible to do the same with the masters! I am really angry about this. I listened to the album with my headphones and all the master takes had a certain ammount of hiss. That changed with the outtakes which sounded fresh and clear.

Ernst - what happened?

:?: :?: :?:
Ernst may have nothing to do with it, it may be down to Felton. Those masters had an awful lot of overdubbing, whereas the session takes have none. That'll be the main reason for the perceived change in sound quality right there, I reckon.

Jules



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Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by javilu »

familyjules wrote:
The Welz wrote:I got my copy of the latest FTD escape yesterday and I must say that I have some mixed feelings about it. The positive thing is, that I like the album very much and the new version obviously sounds better than the versions before. The artwork is well done and the booklet looks good to me. So there are no complains here, too.

But I still ask myself, why the outtakes sound so much better than the master takes. This happened quite a few times before and I still cannot understand why. Maybe the FTD people just remaster a copy of the original tapes and cannot remove the hiss and the (in other cases) dull sound. But if it is possible to re-mix and re-master the outtakes it may be possible to do the same with the masters! I am really angry about this. I listened to the album with my headphones and all the master takes had a certain ammount of hiss. That changed with the outtakes which sounded fresh and clear.

Ernst - what happened?

:?: :?: :?:
Ernst may have nothing to do with it, it may be down to Felton. Those masters had an awful lot of overdubbing, whereas the session takes have none. That'll be the main reason for the perceived change in sound quality right there, I reckon.

Jules
I don't know, man. The same thing happened with Harum Scarum and Frankie and Johnny. Great sound on the outtakes, awful sound on the otiginal album. And I don't recall any ovedubs on those masters.


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Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by familyjules »

Maybe it's that master tapes have been used several times down the years, for new album pressings, CDs, etc, whereas the session tapes have mainly been in storage?

Jules



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Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by ColinB »

familyjules wrote:Maybe it's that master tapes have been used several times down the years, for new album pressings, CDs, etc, whereas the session tapes have mainly been in storage?
Using a master tape 'several times' shouldn't make any difference to the audio quality.

All the tapes are [hopefully] always handled & stored in a professional manner.

There must be another explanation for the superior sound of the session tapes.


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Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by familyjules »

ColinB wrote:There must be another explanation for the superior sound of the session tapes.
Maybe it's them there aliens! I bet they have something to do with it!

:lol:

Jules



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Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by ColinB »

familyjules wrote:
ColinB wrote:There must be another explanation for the superior sound of the session tapes.
Maybe it's them there aliens! I bet they have something to do with it!
Well, they've even got the blessing of The Pope now !

I wonder if the master tapes have been subject to some 'process' which is irreversible............


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Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by familyjules »

ColinB wrote:I wonder if the master tapes have been subject to some 'process' which is irreversible............
Like joining a religious cult?

:lol:

Jules



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Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by ColinB »

familyjules wrote:
ColinB wrote:I wonder if the master tapes have been subject to some 'process' which is irreversible............
Like joining a religious cult?
I was thinking of something more mundane than that.

Like a poor 'digital transfer' or something.....................


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Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by familyjules »

ColinB wrote:
familyjules wrote:
ColinB wrote:I wonder if the master tapes have been subject to some 'process' which is irreversible............
Like joining a religious cult?
I was thinking of something more mundane than that.

Like a poor 'digital transfer' or something.....................
You may be onto something there, Colin. I think that sounds more plausible than either my aliens or religious cult suggestions. I don't even know what I was thinking! Aliens! The very idea!

:smt044

Jules




Topic author
Matthew

Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by Matthew »

The Welz wrote:I got my copy of the latest FTD escape yesterday and I must say that I have some mixed feelings about it. The positive thing is, that I like the album very much and the new version obviously sounds better than the versions before. The artwork is well done and the booklet looks good to me. So there are no complains here, too.

But I still ask myself, why the outtakes sound so much better than the master takes. This happened quite a few times before and I still cannot understand why. Maybe the FTD people just remaster a copy of the original tapes and cannot remove the hiss and the (in other cases) dull sound. But if it is possible to re-mix and re-master the outtakes it may be possible to do the same with the masters! I am really angry about this. I listened to the album with my headphones and all the master takes had a certain ammount of hiss. That changed with the outtakes which sounded fresh and clear.
Ernst - what happened?

:?: :?: :?:
A word to the wise - hiss is a GOOD thing, it means the master haven't been processed to death. With regards to the perceived difference in dynamics between the masters and the outtakes, it's as simple as this: the masters were mixed nearly 38 years on the equipment of the day and mastered to 2 track stereo tape. The outtakes have been mixed in the modern age and mastered digitally, the spread of the instrumentation is also based on a system not used on Elvis' masters in 1970 ie drums hard left vs drums centered.

On the masters any post production FX such as reverb were produced using 1970 technology, the outtakes will likely have used processes such as digital reverb etc to replicate the same or similar effect.

The only way to have a closer match of sound is for the original session multitrack tapes to be completely remixed from scratch producing new master "tapes" - but this is more costly and time consuming the more elements you have to work with and really doesn't hold firm with the aim to offer the original album masters as they were first released.



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Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by ColinB »

Matthew wrote:...it's as simple as this: the masters were mixed nearly 38 years on the equipment of the day and mastered to 2 track stereo tape. The outtakes have been mixed in the modern age and mastered digitally, the spread of the instrumentation is also based on a system not used on Elvis' masters in 1970 ie drums hard left vs drums centered.

On the masters any post production FX such as reverb were produced using 1970 technology, the outtakes will likely have used processes such as digital reverb etc to replicate the same or similar effect.

The only way to have a closer match of sound is for the original session multitrack tapes to be completely remixed from scratch producing new master "tapes" - but this is more costly and time consuming the more elements you have to work with and really doesn't hold firm with the aim to offer the original album masters as they were first released.
I said: "I wonder if the masters have been subject to some process that is irreversible"

I think you just agreed with me.....................................


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Topic author
Matthew

Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by Matthew »

ColinB wrote:I said: "I wonder if the masters have been subject to some process that is irreversible"

I think you just agreed with me.....................................
Not at all. FTD has remastered the two track mixes created for the album master in 1970. If they wanted, had the time, patience, and budget, they could have chosen to revisit the session multitracks and mixed brand new masters like was done in 1995 to the December 1973 Stax sessions.



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Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by ColinB »

Matthew wrote:
ColinB wrote:I said: "I wonder if the masters have been subject to some process that is irreversible"

I think you just agreed with me.....................................
Not at all. FTD has remastered the two track mixes created for the album master in 1970. If they wanted, had the time, patience, and budget, they could have chosen to revisit the session multitracks and mixed brand new masters like was done in 1995 to the December 1973 Stax sessions.
Yes, they could create new masters from the session multitracks, but the current masters 'have been subject to some process that is irreversible', in other words cannot be improved to the level of the outtakes.

Come on, Matthew, it won't kill you to agree with me...............................


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Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by familyjules »

While you're sumoning up the courage to say Colin is right, Matthew, I just wanted to say thanks for an illuminating response. I feel educated.

Jules



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Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by ColinB »

familyjules wrote:While you're sumoning up the courage to say Colin is right, Matthew, I just wanted to say thanks for an illuminating response. I feel educated.
He he he he........... nicely put, Jules !


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Matthew

Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by Matthew »

ColinB wrote:
Matthew wrote:
ColinB wrote:I said: "I wonder if the masters have been subject to some process that is irreversible"

I think you just agreed with me.....................................
Not at all. FTD has remastered the two track mixes created for the album master in 1970. If they wanted, had the time, patience, and budget, they could have chosen to revisit the session multitracks and mixed brand new masters like was done in 1995 to the December 1973 Stax sessions.
Yes, they could create new masters from the session multitracks, but the current masters 'have been subject to some process that is irreversible', in other words cannot be improved to the level of the outtakes.

Come on, Matthew, it won't kill you to agree with me...............................
Some process that is irreversible? The outtakes are fresh mixes, the masters are not, they are vintage - that is all. What exactly are you getting at? All 2-track stereo mixes are irreversible - your sentence doesn't make sense. And even if you could somehow "reverse" a 2 track stereo mix why would you when you'd end up at point A: the multitrack recording, which you have anyway.

If FTD had wanted to they could have invested in the time and effort to faithfully recreate the original mixes from the session multitracks they have. All it needs is a keen ear and careful workmanship. What really should have been done IMO with all the alternate takes available is to have mixed them faithful to their master counterparts. The reason they sound so different is they have been mixed to modern standards - the audio image therefore sounds fresher as a result.

What you're really trying to say (I think) is that the original masters have been subject to some processes that cannot be accurately replicated. If so then yes I agree. The only way to create totally honest new master mixes faithful the original masters is to use the same equipment used back in the day rather than digital approximations.



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Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by familyjules »

Matthew wrote:All 2-track stereo mixes are irreversible

What you're really trying to say (I think) is that the original masters have been subject to some processes that cannot be accurately replicated. If so then yes I agree.
I think that constitues an agreement, Colin!!

:lol:

Jules



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Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by ColinB »

familyjules wrote:
Matthew wrote:All 2-track stereo mixes are irreversible

What you're really trying to say (I think) is that the original masters have been subject to some processes that cannot be accurately replicated. If so then yes I agree.
I think that constitues an agreement, Colin!!
Well, yeah, as close as I'm going to get, I reckon !


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Topic author
Matthew

Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by Matthew »

ColinB wrote:
familyjules wrote:
Matthew wrote:All 2-track stereo mixes are irreversible

What you're really trying to say (I think) is that the original masters have been subject to some processes that cannot be accurately replicated. If so then yes I agree.
I think that constitues an agreement, Colin!!
Well, yeah, as close as I'm going to get, I reckon !
Indeed.



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Re: That's The Way It Is (FTD Records/2008)

Post by javilu »

Bollocks. If FTD managed to make Viva Las Vegas and Raised on rock sound just as good as the outtakes, they could have done that with Harum Scarum too, right? RIGHT?


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